RPTS STALLSWORTH

DCMN PARKER

EXECUTIVE SESSION

COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM AND OVERSIGHT U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

WASHINGTON, D.C.

DEPOSITION OF: JACOB ARIEH SWILLER

Friday, August 22, 1997

Washington, D.C.

The deposition in the above matter was held in Room 2203, Rayburn House Office Building, commencing at 10:00 a.m..

Appearances:

Staff Present for the Government Reform and Oversight Committee: James C. Wilson, Senior Investigative Counsel; Miki White, Investigative Counsel; Christopher Lu, Minority Counsel; and Michael J. Yeager, Minority Counsel.

For MR. SWILLER:

STUART F. PIERSON, ESQ.

Levine Pierson Sullivan & Koch, L.L.P.

1155 Connecticut Avenue, N.W., Suite 700

Washington, D.C. 20036

Mr. Wilson. Good morning. On behalf of the members of the Committee on Government Reform and Oversight, I appreciate and thank you for appearing here today.

This proceeding is known as a deposition. The person transcribing this proceeding is a House reporter and notary public. I will now request that the reporter place you under oath.

THEREUPON,

JACOB ARIEL SWILLER,

a witness, was called for examination by Counsel, and after having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

Mr. Wilson. I would like to note for the record those who are present at the beginning of this deposition. My name is James Wilson. I'm the designated Majority counsel for the committee. I'm accompanied today by Mickey White, who is also with the Majority staff. Mr. ­­

Mr. Lu. Lu.

Mr. Wilson. Christopher Lu and Michael Yeager are with the Minority staff. And Mr. Ari Swiller is accompanied by Mr. Stewart Pierson.

Although this proceeding is being held in a somewhat informal atmosphere, because you have been placed under oath, your testimony here today has the same force and effect as if you were testifying before the committee or in a courtroom. If I ask you about conversations you have had in the past and you're unable to recall the exact words used in the conversation, you may state that you are unable to recall those exact words and then you may give me the gist or substance of any such conversation to the best of your recollection.

If you recall only part of a conversation or only part of an event, please give me your best recollection of that conversation or that event or the parts of the event or conversation that you do recall.

If I ask you whether you have any information about a particular subject and if you have overheard other persons conversing with each other regarding that subject or have seen correspondence or documentation regarding that subject, please tell me that you do have such information and indicate the source, either a conversation, documentation or otherwise from which you derive such knowledge.

Before we begin questioning, I would like to give you some background about the investigation and your appearance here. Pursuant to its authority under House rules 10 and 11 of the House of Representatives, the committee is engaged in a wide­ranging review of possible political fund­raising improprieties and possible violations of law.

Pages 2 through 4 of House Report 105­139, summarizes the investigation as of June 19, 1997, and encompasses any new matters which arise directly or indirectly in the course of the investigation. Also, pages 4 through 11 of the report explain the background of the investigation.

All questions related either directly or indirectly to those issues or questions which have the tendency to make the existence of any pertinent fact more or less probable than it would be without such evidence are proper.

The committee has been granted specific authorization to conduct this deposition pursuant to House Resolution 167, which passed the full House on June 20, 1997. Committee Rule 20 outlines the ground rules of this deposition.

Majority and Minority counsel will ask you questions regarding the subject matter of the investigation. Minority counsel will ask questions after Majority counsel has finished. After the Minority counsel has completed questioning, a new round of questions may begin. Members of Congress that wish to ask questions will be afforded an immediate opportunity to ask their questions. When they are finished, committee counsel will resume questioning.

Pursuant to the committee's rules, you are allowed to have an opportunity present to advise you of your rights. Any objection raised during the course of the deposition shall be stated for the record. If the witness is instructed not to answer a question or otherwise refuses to answer a question, Majority and Minority counsel will confer to determine whether the objection is proper. If Majority and Minority counsel agree that the question is proper, the witness will be asked to answer the question. If an objection is not withdrawn, the Chairman or a Member designated by the Chairman will decide whether the objection is proper.

This deposition is considered as taken in executive session of the committee, which means that it may not be made public without the consent of the committee. Pursuant to clause 2(k)(7) of House Rule 11, you are asked to abide by the rules of the House and not discuss with anyone other than your attorney or attorneys this deposition and the issues and questions raised during this proceeding.

Finally, no later than 5 days after your testimony is transcribed and you have been notified that your transcript is available, you may submit suggested changes to the Chairman. The transcript will be available for your review at the committee office. Committee staff may make any typographical or technical changes requested by you. Substantive changes, modifications, clarifications or amendments to the deposition transcript submitted by you must be accompanied by a letter requesting the changes and a statement of your reasons for each proposed change.

A letter requesting any substantive changes must be signed by you. Any substantive changes made shall be included as an appendix to the transcript, conditioned upon your signing of the transcript. It's my understanding that you've come from a long distance, and at the conclusion of these proceedings we'll make arrangements for you to review your deposition transcript in a way that's convenient for both yourself and your attorney.

Do you understand everything that we've gone over so far?

The Witness. I do.

Mr. Wilson. Do you have any questions about anything I've discussed so far.

The Witness. No.

Mr. Wilson. I've got a few preliminary questions to ask of the witness. Does anybody else have any statement or comment at this time?

Mr. Lu. Not at this time.

Mr. Pierson. I do. First of all, your preliminary

instructions to the witness about what you would like him to say if he should answer a particular way are general questions that typically you find at the beginning of written interrogatories and are easy for a respondent to attend to since they'll be right there before him in writing.

I would expect that if Mr. Swiller gives you an answer that he either doesn't recall or doesn't know or is not sure, that you will be appropriately following up with questions about what he does know or what he may remember so that he will not have to remember specifically every item of your preliminary instructions.

With respect to the transcript, I appreciate your indication that you'll make it available to him since he's in California currently. He lives there now and has a residence there. He is also getting married at the end of this month and will also not be accessible for a while afterward, as you expect. We appreciate you making appropriate accommodations for reading the transcript.

Finally, I refer to my letter, July 3, 1997, to the committee in which I responded to dates of Mr. Swiller's deposition. Among other things, I have advised the Chairman that he should be advised Mr. Swiller testified extensively recently in depositions taken by the Senate committee inquiring into this.

We would be pleased to give you permission to read the transcript of that deposition and thereby to avoid the inevitable repetition that would result as you pursue the same lines of inquiry. I take it, counsel, that you have not undertaken to read the transcript of Mr. Swiller's deposition in the Senate.

Mr. Wilson. We have not been given a copy of Mr. Swiller's deposition transcript from the Senate. And I appreciate your initial offer. And we would certainly have taken up your suggestions. But we have not been permitted to see or review a copy of that deposition.

Mr. Pierson. Can you tell me whether the Senate committee has been advised whether we would be given permission to do so?

Mr. Wilson. I honestly don't know specifically in your case. But there have been a number of witnesses who have made similar offers, and we have advised the Senate in each instance that there have been no objections and my understanding is that there's a matter of Senate protocol and the particular rules under which they are functioning and that specific investigation in which Mr. Swiller gave his deposition. At this point, we do not have access to most of the depositions taken. Some have been released. And those have involved individuals who have testified publicly. Unfortunately, Mr. Swiller's is not one of them.

Mr. Pierson. Finally, I understand that under the rules, this deposition is being taken in executive session. I appreciate that. And I appreciate the instructions. Of course, Mr. Swiller is entirely at liberty to talk to anybody about what he has said here today at any time. Moreover, if any report of his testimony should be leaked from the committee or from its staff, we will consider that executive session instruction to be devoid.

Mr. Lu. If I may, I would just like to second Mr. Pierson's concerns about Mr. Swiller's deposition in light of the Senate deposition. The Democratic staff has always believed that these depositions should be put off until after the release of their Senate depositions. Obviously, we have not had our way. So I would simply just second that. We appreciate you coming in. We realize this has been a burden for you, especially since a lot of the testimony you'll be giving today will be duplicative testimony to the Senate.

Mr. Pierson. That's all I have.

EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:

Q Mr. Swiller, I'll be asking you questions concerning the subject matter of this investigation. Do you understand?

A Yes.

Q If you don't understand a question, please say so, and I'll repeat it or rephrase it so that you are able to understand the question. Do you understand that you should tell me if you do not understand my question?

A Yes.

Q The reporter will be taking down everything we say and will make a written record of the deposition. You are asked to give verbal, audible answers because the reporter cannot record a gesture or nonspecific answer. Do you understand that you should not answer uh­huh or provide a gesture to answer one of my questions?

A Yes.

Q If you can't hear me, please say so and I'll repeat the question or have the court reporter read the question to you. Do you understand that?

A Yes.

Q Please wait until I finish each question before answering it, and I will wait until you finish your answer before I ask the next question. Do you understand that this will help the reporter to make a clear record because she cannot record what we are both stating at the same time?

A Yes.

Q Your testimony is being taken under oath as if we were in court, and if you answer a question, it will be assumed that you understood the question and the answer was intended to be responsive to it. Do you understand that?

A Yes.

Q Are you here voluntarily or are you here as a result of a subpoena?

A Voluntarily.

Q Do you have any questions about this deposition before we begin the substantive portion of the proceeding?

A No.

Q Please state your name and state it for the record?

A It's Jacob Arieh, A­R­I­E­H, Swiller, S­W­I­L­L­E­R.

Q Have you in the past used any other name or gone by any other name?

A Ari Swiller is what I generally go by. It's A­R­I, same last name.

Q What is your date of birth?

A 2/11/69.

Q What is your current address?

A 801 Second Street, Apartment 405, Santa Monica, California, 90403.

Q What was your last address in Washington, D.C.?

A 2111 19th Street, Northwest.

Q Have ­­ have you lived for a period of more than 6 months out of the United States?

A I have not.

Q Did you attend college?

A I did.

Q Where did you attend college?

A I went to Cornell University in New York.

Q And when did you graduate?

A It was class of 1991.

Q Have you received any other degrees?

A I have not.

Q Please briefly describe your employment history after college?

A My first ­­ after college, I traveled for a few months and moved to Washington in early 1992. I was an intern for the office of Matt McHugh, a Member of Congress from the State of New York. At the same time I began to volunteer at the Clinton for President Campaign.

In approximately April or May of 1992, I became a full­time staffer in the Clinton for President Campaign in the Finance Department. We transferred to the Democratic National Committee following the 1992 convention in New York. After the November election, I worked for the Presidential inaugural committee. Following the inaugural, I stayed on the staff of the inaugural until approximately April again.

In April of 1993, I started work for Steny Hoyer, a Member of Congress from Maryland. At the time, he was chair of the Democratic caucus and I served on his caucus staff. I worked there until December of 1993, at which time I joined the Democratic National Committee. I worked there until March of 1997 at which time I joined the Rouse Grocery Company as Vice President of External Affairs. That's my current position.

Q Have you spoken with anyone other than your counsel about this deposition?

A No.

Q Have you reviewed any documents in preparation for this deposition?

Mr. Pierson. I will tell you that yesterday he had an interview with the FBI at which time he was asked to examine documents which you may be interested in.

BY MR. WILSON:

Q Do you have any documents that are ­­ DNC documents currently in your possession?

A I do not.

Q Did you leave all of your work­related materials in your ­­ with your former place of employment?

A I did.

Q What documents did you review with the FBI?

Mr. Pierson. He may not remember. I can perhaps help him. There was a memorandum in July 1995 by a Landroca Steel to Donald Fowler. There was a memorandum he wrote to a counsel at the DNC concerning Pauline Kanchanalak following 1996 election. Was there anything else?

The Witness. Staff list.

Mr. Pierson. Oh, yes, they showed him a staff list of the DNC and asked him to indicate which ones were fund­raisers and which were not.

BY MR. WILSON:

Q How did you come to work at the DNC?

A At which time period?

Q In your final ­­ your final stint at the DNC as a paid employee?

A I had worked with a few of the staff members of the DNC during the '92 campaign. When I went to work with Mr. Hoyer, I stayed in touch with them. Around December of 1993, a little bit earlier, a friend of mine, Laura Hartigan, became finance director and at that time asked me to rejoin with her at the staff of the DNC. I accepted her offer in the beginning of December of 1993.

Q Did you interview with anybody for that position?

A I interviewed with Laura Hartigan and David Wilhelm who at that time was Chairman of the Democratic National Committee.

Q And referring, and I'll try and be specific, but I'm referring to your final employment at the DNC, what was your title?

A For most of the time, I was director of the Trustee Program. Or director of large donor efforts.

Q Did you have any other titles?

A No.

Q Who did you report to?

A When I first started at the DNC, I reported to Laura Hartigan. Following the spring of 1995, there was a transition, and the new finance director was Richard Sullivan, who I reported to until I left.

Q Could you provide a general description of your office? And by that I mean were there other individuals who worked with you in your capacity as ­­

A There were two people under my direction. When I first started, they were Jennifer Scully and Jay Webber. The following time, Mr. Webber left, and a gentleman named Mack Gobush, G­O­B­U­S­H, joined the staff. Following some time, there was another transition in the spring of '95, an Anne Braziel and Nancy Burk joined the staff with me.

Q In a spatial sense, where were they located in relation to where you worked? Were you all in the same office?

A I'll refer to the last part of my year and a half.

Q Okay.

A Ms. Braziel and I shared an office. And Ms. Burk was stationed at a cubicle within approximately 12 feet of our office.

Q Did you type your own letters and memoranda?

A For the most part, I did. However, at times, I was assisted by both Ms. Braziel and Ms. Burk in some of the memoranda and letters that were sent under my name.

Q Did you fax your own fax transmissions to other people?

A Same, the previous answer. I did most of it. But they also assisted.

Q Did you have someone who would take messages for you from the telephone?

A I did not. We had a voice mail system.

Q Did you use an e­mail system at the DNC?

A It was available. I was not a frequent user of it.

Q Did you have any ­­ and, again, I'll just refer to the period during which you were the ­­ the director of the Trustee Program. Did you have any official contact with White House employees?

A What do you mean by official?

Q Business­related contacts, where you would discuss matters with them or they would discuss matters with you?

A Yes, I did.

Q Was there a specific liaison in the White House to deal with you in your office?

A There was not.

Q Were there ­­ was there any one person or were there any select number of people that you would deal with regularly?

A I dealt for some time with Brian Bailey, with a woman named Tracy LeBreque, with a gentleman named Donald Dunn. Those were my primary contacts.

Q Do you recall any dealings with other employees at the White House?

A I mean, ­­ I mean, for instance ­­

Mr. Pierson. Are you asking about any contact or regular contact?

Mr. Wilson. Regular contacts.

The Witness. I mean I was friendly with a number of people through my work on the campaign. As far as business­related matters, the majority of my contacts are with the people I stated already.

BY MR. WILSON:

Q Did you ever attend regularly scheduled events at the White House?

A Events meaning meetings or ­­

Q Well, I'm trying to eliminate a random event that might be a Christmas party or a single type event, but a weekly scheduled event or a monthly type scheduled event, something that would occur on a regular basis?

A For a time, Mr. Bailey arranged for meetings that included and arranged political staff representatives, congressional liaison staff representatives. The point of the meeting was to gather lists of names for upcoming social events that may take place at the White House.

Q How frequently did such meetings occur?

A They were scheduled, I believe, to take place every other week. Invariably, my meetings were canceled pretty often, and they did not run ­­ I believe this program did not run more than 6 months.

Q Did you have a pass to allow you access to the White House?

A Never did.

Q How did you gain access to the White House?

A I was usually cleared through Mr. Bailey's office.

Q And how would that process work?

A After I was notified of a meeting, someone from his office would call and request my date of birth and Social Security number. They would tell me the time to enter and which gate of the White House to enter. I would present ID when I'd enter and be directed to the room where the meeting would take place.

Q Please provide an overview of the Trustee Program at the DNC.

A Trustee Program was a group of the highest donors to the Democratic Party or highest fund­raisers. The ­­ there were two levels within the Trustee Program. There were trustees who contributed $50,000 or raised over 100,000. And managing trustees who contributed 100,000 and raised over 250,000. The program consisted of, by the time the '96 election, approximately 800 people from across the country.

Q Did individuals who were members of the Trustee Program receive regular materials from the DNC? By that, I mean mailings and the sort?

A We had a tally or sometimes every other day fax service with talking points regarding pertinent political issues. When we knew of ­­ ahead of time of scheduled events such as the national galla in Washington, they received the date of that event as far ahead of time as we could provide it so that they knew of an invitation to that event.

Q The daily faxes that you just referenced, who was responsible for sending the fax transmissions?

A I believe they were written in the Research Department. And I don't know the process by which they were then faxed. But it was on a massive scale to not just trustees, but all financial supporters as well as political supporters and constituents.

Q Who was the individual or who were the individuals who composed the fax transmissions?

A I would be speculating. I'm not sure who in the Research Department.

Q Did you ever have occasion to discuss entries in the fax transmissions with people who would be authors of the fax transmissions?

A I did not.

Q Do you know who did?

A I don't.

Q Did you receive regular copies of the fax transmissions?

A They were supposed to be provided regularly. I don't think I saw ­­ I probably saw half of the transmissions that were sent.

Q Do you recall whether you retained any of the faxes that went out to the trustees for your records?

A No. I did not.

Q No, you don't recall?

A I did not retain them.

Q While you were at the DNC in your position as Director of the Trustee Program, did you have any responsibility for any other programs or initiatives at the DNC?

A The one other program I was involved with was an effort to raise money from the Jewish constituency. It had varying titles. One we used most frequently was Jewish Leadership Forum. It was not a scheduled or defined job description. It just was a general ­­ part of a general effort to raise money within the Jewish community?

Q Did you regularly receive requests from members of the Trustee Program to obtain assistance with various types of things that they would like to do with the White House? And I realize that's about as unspecific as you can possibly make a question. So I'm just trying to gather whether there was a type of system that you used when people would call you up and ask you to do something for them, if they did ask you to do something for them. And that could be a tour of the White House or something like that or ­­ just starting with that, if people called you up and asked you for a tour or perhaps an opportunity to get a photograph. Did you have a regular procedure that you would follow to respond to that request?

Mr. Pierson. Are you talking about trustees calling.

Mr. Wilson. Yes.

The Witness. Well, let's take them ­­ as far as tours, we tried to accommodate. Nancy Burk, Ms. Burk was the woman in my office who handled, who contacted the White House, receiving an allotment of some of the tickets which the White House provided the DNC to our trustees to have ticketed tours of the White House. Ms. ­­ If ­­ when you say photograph, you mean just a still photo of the President?

BY MR. WILSON:

Q Yes.

A If it's just a still picture, again, I would probably ask Ms. Burk to retrieve one from the file and address a letter, an envelope to the requester.

Q Did you ­­ did you have a system to handle requests? And by that, I mean, did you use forms to track a request that would come in, a form would go out to a particular individual, or would it be fair to say that you responded to requests of you on an ad hoc basis?

A Ad hoc basis.

Q Did you have a system in place to determine whether it was appropriate to help an individual with a request that might be made of you?

Mr. Lu. I'm not sure I understand the word, "appropriate." But if you do, please answer it.

Mr. Pierson. I also have an objection. Is the "you" directed to him or is it directed to the entire DNC.

Mr. Wilson. To Mr. Swiller.

Mr. Pierson. Did he personally have a system.

Mr. Wilson. Personally. Just was there a fail­safe mechanism system that you had in place to screen and determine whether it was appropriate to assist somebody with a request that they might make of you.

Mr. Pierson. He's asking about you personally.

The Witness. No.

BY MR. WILSON:

Q Was there a DNC system that you would follow to determine whether it was appropriate to assist anybody with the request?

A No.

Q Were there ever occasions in which an individual might call you and ask ­­ asking for you to help with something, and you were uncomfortable with providing assistance to them?

A Yes.

Q If you could, please describe those situations.

Mr. Pierson. Try and give some examples.

The Witness. Frequently, ­­ not frequently. That's overstating it. A few times, people would request to speak directly with the President, the Vice President, even members ­­ most senior staff members at the White House, and ask for my assistance in providing those meetings. I always felt those requests were inappropriate and do not recall ever acting on one of them.

BY MR. WILSON:

Q Do you have any examples or do you recall any situations where an individual made a request of you and you were concerned about following up on that request because of something you knew about that person?

A I don't know if I understand the second part of your question. You mean something I knew in their past?

Q Yes, preexisting knowledge of something that they had done or place that they had been or position that they had held which made you uncomfortable with continuing to assist them or assisting them in the first place.

A I generally acted that if I felt uncomfortable with a request, I didn't do it, regardless of whether it was something in their background or if their request was, I felt, inappropriate, I didn't act on that.

Q Trying to move away from situations where people were asking you things that you found to simply not be possible or request that you felt was just not something that could be realized, do you recall any situations where an individual made a request of you and you thought that you or the DNC did not want to be involved with helping that individual?

Mr. Lu. Because of their past?

Mr. Wilson. Because of anything.

Mr. Lu. Because of anything.

Mr. Wilson. Anything that you knew or have knowledge of.

The Witness. Could you restate the question? I'm sorry.

Mr. Wilson. I'll ask the reporter to read it, if I may.

[The reporter read back as requested.]

The Witness. Could you possibly restate that?

Mr. Wilson. Well, I'm not trying to be hard here. If you thought simply this is a person I don't think we should be involved with, and either you decided not to help or you discussed with somebody else whether that person should be assisted.

The Witness. I don't recall anyone that I flatly denied assistance.

BY MR. WILSON:

Q Did you ever talk to any colleague at the DNC about an individual and about whether it was appropriate to provide assistance to them?

A I don't recall any specific conversations.

Q Did you ever personally do any background checks on individuals who you came in contact with in your position as the director of the Trustee Program?

A I do not personally, no.

Q Did you ever request that anybody at the DNC to provide background information on the people that you came into contact with at the DNC?

A Yes.

Q Who would you make such requests of?

A I tended to work with the Research Department at the DNC, different individuals who had access to Nexis­Lexis within their department.

Q Do you recall the names of individuals you worked with?

A I don't. Oh, that I worked with?

Q At the DNC. On this matter of getting background information?

A A name that I recall is Tom Janenda was the Deputy Research Director.

Q Do you recall any other individuals that you might have made background requests for background information?

A He was my primary contact. That I recall.

Q Did you ever have anybody in your immediate office, the individuals you described previously as working with you, did you ever ask them to do any background checks on individuals?

A I did not.

Q Did you keep files of biographical information on individuals who were members of the Trustee Program?

A I did.

Q And ­­ and what form did you keep that information in?

A It was in a file cabinet, each donor member of the Trustee Program had a file with their name. And as many cases as we had a bio, a bio accompanied the file.

Q So is it fair to say that if there were approximately 800 individuals who participated in the Trustee Program, that there were approximately 800 files on the individuals?

A Approximately, yeah. But not all of them had bios. We may have had an empty file.

Q What types of information would you keep in the file?

A Bio information. If they had been sent a photograph or some other letter inviting them to an event, we may keep a copy on file. And in some cases, not in all, we ­­ if they were trustees because of a donation, we kept a copy of the check and the check­tracking form in the file.

Q Do you recall any other types of information that was kept in the files?

A That was primarily it.

Q How would you obtain the biographical information?

A We would request it directly from the office or from ­­ from the office of the individual for the ­­ from the individual, him or herself.

Q Did you have a standard form that you would send to them to fill out?

A I believe Ms. Braziel designed a form that also requested that they provide us with their date of birth, Social Security number, as well as their address, home address, business address, telephone numbers, spouse's name, et cetera.

Q How did you keep track of the individuals who were participants in the Trustee Program?

A We had a computer data base system?

Q What ­­ did this data base produce an aggregate list of trustees that was ­­ that you had access to?

A It could, uh­huh. Yes.

Q Did you keep such lists?

A I did.

Q Were these lists updated on a regular basis or were they just lists that if you had a need for them, you would request a new list to be generated?

A Generally, I received a list when I requested it. There was not a scheduled updating.

Q Were there any lists generated by the data base you described or in any other way that described the aggregate amount of contributions that come, that had come from the Trustee Program?

A I'm not sure if I understand.

Q Just whether at any particular time during the year, could you get a printout or a list that said ­­ that told you this year, X amount of dollars have been raised through the Trustee Program?

A No, I did not.

Q Did you ever create such a list yourself based on numbers of participating trustees?

A I may have tried to create lists broken down by contribution and then the sum of their contribution. But contributions were not made directly to the program in many cases. They were made in conjunction with an event, a fund­raising event anywhere in the country. But if someone had raised the necessary funds to become a member or contributed the necessary funds, they became a member, whether or not it was a direct to joining the program.

Q Is it fair to say, then, that if somebody that made a contribution, that it was of the requisite amount, $50,000, for example, for the Trustee Program to attend a dinner, a fund­raiser, that they would then become a member of the Trustee Program?

A Uh­huh. That's correct.

Q And how did ­­ how did you keep track of those types of transactions? How did you know whether people would become eligible to be a member of the Trustee Program or not?

A I mean, it varied case to case. Some individuals sent their contributions directly to me or a list of what contributions they had raised. And I had direct contact. In cases where events were held around the country, individual fund­raisers were responsible for that event. Following the event would provide me a list of new members or people who had renewed their membership through the event which they had just coordinated. Those are the primary ones.

Q Did you circulate among other offices at the DNC the list of trustees?

A On occasion, the chairman's office would request a list. Other than that, the lists were in the Finance Department. No one else requested them.

Q Did you ever send a trustee list to the White House?

A No.

Q There's a term of art that I've seen on documents, and it's the fund­raiser account. Do you know what that refers to?

A I don't.

Q You mentioned earlier that there was a computer system that kept track of the managing trustee lists. Was that the AS­400 system?

A The AS­400 system was a system at the DNC. Within the Trustee Department, we had a separate data base that was more flexible to our needs of generating labels and quick lists that we used. It was a Paradox­based data system.

Q Did you receive regular information from the AS­400 system?

A I used it to reference ­­ it was a good reference for when contributions were put in, because all contributions were posted in the AS­400. So I had access to it from the main frame at my desk. So frequently, I would access information off it.

Q Were printouts of contributions generated by the AS­400 system the source of information that you used to determine who had contributed money and who would be eligible to be in the Trustee Program?

A At times, yes. It was a source of information for that, yes.

Q If you could, just describe what would happen if you had dealt directly with somebody and discussed making a contribution, and they hadn't made a contribution, sent you a contribution ­­

A And they hadn't ­­

Q And they had sent you a contribution. What would you do to ensure that that was entered into the AS­400 system?

A I actually had no direct connection to the entries into the AS­400. My only assurance was I'd give approximately a week's time from when I had received the check ­­ from the time from when I submitted the check, and checking the AS­400 was my only safety net in making sure. And I don't recall situations where checks did not appear after a week or maybe in some cases 2 weeks, but ­­

Q When a check, and this is assuming first of all, did you receive checks directly from donors?

A I did.

Q When you did receive such a check, what was the mechanical process of handling that check? What would you do with that?

A We ­­ I would attach a donor information sheet check tracking form and add with it their name, company, phone number, which event the contribution related to, or was it part of their membership to the Trustee Program as indicated on the sheet. Then photocopied batch checks if I had more than one, and submit them to ­­ I don't know the title, but the person within our ­­ the Finance Department who maintained the list of what checks had come in.

Q Who was that person?

A The last person serving that was a woman named Theresa Stirk.

Q And do you recall who was in a similar position before that?

A During my time there were two other people that held it. First, it was a gentleman, Jeff King. And Susan Ochs, O­C­H­S.

Q Did you ever receive lists of individuals generated in or by the White House.

Mr. Pierson. Any kind of lists? Just a list that came from the White House.

Mr. Wilson. (Indicating in the affirmative.)

The Witness. Yes.

BY MR. WILSON:

Q What types of lists did you receive?

A On occasion, they would submit to us a list of individuals who might be attending an upcoming White House event.

Q And why would you receive such information?

Mr. Pierson. If you know.

The Witness. In some occasions, we provided some names to be included in events they submitted since they were responsible for invitations and receiving regrets. They would provide a list identifying who was coming.

BY MR. WILSON:

Q Do you recall receiving any other types of lists from the White House?

A I do not.

Q Did you ever receive any lists of individuals who were suggested individuals to approach to ask for donations­­

Mr. Pierson. From the White House.

Mr. Wilson. From the White House.

The Witness. No, I did not.

BY MR. WILSON:

Q Do you know what the system at the DNC is now for screening campaign contributors, people who have

contributed ­­

A Today, I do not.

Q Okay. Prior to November of 1996, did ­­ do you know at the time what the system was for screening contributions?

Mr. Pierson. Are you talking appropriateness or legality?

Mr. Wilson. Well either, actually.

Mr. Pierson. Well, you probably ought to take them one by one.

Mr. Wilson. Well, we will then.

BY MR. WILSON:

Q Appropriateness screening for appropriateness?

A Extended to our own discretion to decide on whether we're comfortable with a person's contribution. When I say our, I mean the individual fund­raiser dealing with that contribution.

Q And staying on the issue of appropriateness in terms of screening contributions, do you recall examples or situations where it was determined ­­ where you had discussions with people about the appropriateness of a ­­ of a contribution?

A I may have at times conferred with the ­­ Mr. Sullivan or Marvin Rosen, the finance chair. But it was very infrequent.

Q And do you remember the subjects of those inquiries?

A Sometimes, there ­­ if individuals were making a contribution that we needed ­­ I'm trying to think. We needed more information on the individual or the corporation giving the contribution to make sure that it was a U.S. subsidiary.

Mr. Wilson. Excuse me, this is a reinforcement reporter.

The Witness. Oh.

BY MR. WILSON:

Q Do you recall any individual contributors that were discussed during these meetings with Mr. Sullivan?

Mr. Pierson. Are you talking about natural persons or just specific instances.

Mr. Wilson. Natural persons, yes.

The Witness. I don't recall specific conversations about individuals or any individuals.

BY MR. WILSON:

Q Turning to legality, what was the system for screening contributions for legality of contribution?

A I'm not sure what it was. I'm not an attorney. I don't know what the process was.

Q Did you ever have any training during which legality of contributions was discussed?

A I did.

Q And with whom? Who conducted this training?

A The general counsel and the deputy counsel, Joseph Sandler and Neal Rieff.

Q Do you recall any instances where a Lexis­Nexis search was done to determine background information to assess either the legality or appropriateness of the contribution?

Mr. Lu. By anyone ­­ I'm sorry.

Mr. Pierson. Let's break it down. Ask about Lexis­Nexis.

Mr. Wilson. Stay with one.

Mr. Pierson. Search before you ask other purpose. Because you'll get a complicated or nonresponsive answer.

Mr. Wilson. Okay.

BY MR. WILSON:

Q I know you did mention before that there had been Lexis­Nexis searches. Did you ever request any Lexis­Nexis searches to be performed to supplement information that would be transmitted on the check­tracking forms that you filled out?

A Not that I recall.

Q Did you request Lexis­Nexis searches for any other purposes?

A I remember a few occasions requesting the context being a person was going to be attending an event at the White House. And required more biographical information on the individual.

Q Do you remember the individuals that you requested searches about?

A I don't.

RPTS COCHRAN

DCMN GALLACHER

[11:00 a.m.]

Q Do you know whether at any time the DNC stopped performing Lexis­Nexis searches to determine the legality of campaign contributions?

A I don't recall starting points. I don't recall an ending point. I don't recall there being a program of it.

Q But do you know whether at any time such searches were stopped?

A I do not.

Q I provide the witness with a document that was a single page of handwritten notes, and it is marked DNC 3049787.

Just requiring you to read the whole thing, do you recognize the handwriting on this document?

A I do not.

Mr. Pierson. Are we going to mark this for the records?

Mr. Wilson. No, actually we will not. What I can do is two things, actually. I will defer to what is convenient for you. Documents that I show the witness that become immediately apparent have no relevance to his testimony, I can simply move on from, or else I can include them in the record if it is a convenience to you when you go back and review the record.

Mr. Pierson. I don't think the record will be complete unless you do include it, because you have testimony about it. If the record says, there is a question, do you recognize the handwriting, there won't be any indication of what handwriting he was looking at, unless you include it. So you should.

Mr. Wilson. I am perfectly willing to do that. I will mark this document Exhibit AS­1 for inclusion in the record.

[Swiller Deposition Exhibit No. AS­1

was marked for identification.]

Mr. Wilson. Just by way of background, we actually keep the documents. We don't let you take them.

Mr. Pierson. The Senate lets us have them.

Mr. Wilson. Sorry. We are less accommodating on that front.

Mr. Pierson. So am I.

BY MR. WILSON:

Q Are you familiar with FEC reporting requirements that apply to the DNC?

A I am familiar with general requirements, yes.

Q What reporting requirements applied to you in what you were doing as director of the trustee program?

A I don't recall direct requirements. What I recall is that information such as occupation, employer of an individual, their address, the phone number and fax number, were required information for all contributions made, or if it was a corporation, the corporation's address, and that that was required for every individual that would then be submitted by the DNC to the FEC. So my requirement in relation to the FEC, as I recall it, was providing complete information on contributions.

Q Apart from filling out check tracking forms, as you have described it previously, did you have to do anything else to ensure compliance with FEC provisions?

Mr. Pierson. You are asking him ­­

Mr. Wilson. That you know of, that had been communicated to him.

Mr. Pierson. As his responsibility? Witness will correct.

The Witness. Not that I recall, no.

BY MR. WILSON:

Q Did you have to produce any reports that you knew were going to be used for the purposes of FEC filing?

A Other than the tracking form, nothing else was required that I recall.

Q Are you aware that the accounting firm of Ernst & Young prepared materials that discussed contributions by individuals during the 1996 election cycle?

A My only ­­ and this is very second and thirdhand knowledge of Ernst & Young's connection with the DNC, is that they, after there were concerns about some donations, they reviewed those as an accounting firm following the '96 election. That is the only knowledge I have of any work they did with the Democratic National Committee.

Q Did you ever meet with any Ernst & Young personnel while you were an employee at the DNC?

A I had a contact there who was a contributor, but not in the context of your earlier stated question.

Q Not in the context of the report or the materials prepared by Ernst & Young?

A Correct.

Q Were you ever contacted by any Ernst & Young employee in regard to the work that they were doing vis­a­vis the '96 campaign contributions?

A Never.

Q Were you ever ­­ did you ever discuss with any of your colleagues the work that Ernst & Young was doing?

A Yes.

Q Were you ever asked to provide anything for the Ernst & Young report?

A Never.

Q Can you just generally recount the discussions you had with colleagues about the Ernst & Young process?

A We, the colleagues I tended to discuss it with were within the finance department that I worked with. My discussion, the context, we were discouraged at how they were proceeding with their report. We felt that it was detrimental to the DNC, it was offending donors who were contacted, and I believe at the time some of our Asian American donors felt that they were being harassed by some of the Ernst & Young employees who were proceeding with that, and it was, you know, to our dismay.

Q Was this your belief?

A Being I had no direct contact, I had no notion, but, you know, after hearing that there were donors who were upset, then became my belief, sure. Yes.

Q Do you know if individuals communicated that to Ernst & Young personnel?

Mr. Lu. You mean donors themselves, or do you mean people at the DNC?

Mr. Wilson. People at the DNC.

Mr. Pierson. Time out. What is the "that" we are talking about? The last thing we testified to is his feeling.

Mr. Wilson. That is quite right.

BY MR. WILSON:

Q Do you know if DNC personnel communicated to Ernst & Young personnel that there was a sense of dissatisfaction with the way the process was proceeding?

A I have no knowledge of that.

Q Did you ever participate in any discussions during which it was discussed the threshold of contribution that Ernst & Young reviewed during their review process?

Mr. Lu. First of all, do you mean a monetary threshold?

Mr. Wilson. Dollar amount.

The Witness. I was not in formal discussions. I think informally, again, all the information we received was secondhand on their inquiries, and I believe we thought it was somewhere either over 5,000 or over 10,000. But I don't ever remember having direct knowledge of what the threshold was. But there was discussion of how they were proceeding.

BY MR. WILSON:

Q Do you know who set the level of monetary contribution that would be examined?

A I don't.

Q Aside from what you might have learned subsequently in media accounts, at the time did you know that ­­ at the time, I am speaking of any time you were employed at the DNC, sort of in your knowledge of what people were telling you among your colleagues, did you know that checks were recommended to be returned?

A Yes.

Q Do you know whether the DNC returned all checks that Ernst & Young had recommended be returned?

A I am not privy to that. No, I don't know that information.

Q Did you have any discussions with your colleagues about whether Ernst & Young was distinguishing between illegal contributions and contributions that were deemed inappropriate?

A I don't recall that discussion, no.

Q What was Scott Pastrick's position at the DNC?

A He had an unpaid volunteer position of treasurer of the Democratic National Committee, which I believe began in the spring of '95.

Q Do you know whether he signed FEC reports?

A I have no knowledge of that.

Q Were you aware of any discussions that ­­

A May I go back to that?

Q Certainly.

A Scott at one point in a conversation with me made light of the fact that he was supposed to sign FEC reports, but I think there were reports that were passed on that he did not sign.

Q Did he tell you why that was?

A I don't remember that, the context of why it was.

Q Did you have any conversations with other colleagues about whether Mr. Pastrick was signing or not signing FEC reports?

A No.

Mr. Pierson. Off the record.

[Discussion off the record.]

BY MR. WILSON:

Q Back on the record.

Have you ever met Mark Middleton?

A I have.

Q When did you first meet Mr. Middleton?

A I first met Mr. Middleton in the course of the 1992 Presidential campaign. We both served on the fund­raising staff for the Clinton for President. My position was in the mid­Atlantic region. Mark was the director of fund­raising in the State of Arkansas. We probably first met either at a national event we did for fund­raisers here in Washington or June or at the convention in July.

Q Do you know whether Mr. Middleton was affiliated with the DNC in 1996?

A I believe he was not.

Q Did Mr. Middleton, do you know whether he was asked to serve on the 1996 finance board of directors?

A I believe he may have been.

Q Do you know whether he actually did serve on the finance board of directors?

A I don't believe so.

Q Did you have any discussions with him about whether he would or would not serve on the '96 finance board of directors?

A Not that I recall.

Q Do you recall whether Mr. Middleton did any fund­raising for the DNC in the 1996 election cycle?

A I recall that he was ­­ when Truman Arnold served as finance chair, he and Mark, he and Mr. Middleton had a close association from Arkansas. Mr. Arnold asked Mr. Middleton to assist in some fund­raising efforts when Mr. Arnold was chairman. But I don't recall ­­ what was the last part of the question?

Q I think that is pretty responsive right there. Did Mr. Middleton assist in organizing any fund­raising events in the '96 election cycle?

A Not that I know of.

Q After Mr. Middleton left the White House, he formed a business called CommerceCorp. Did you ever visit Mr. Middleton in his business place?

A I did not.

Q Did Mr. Middleton ever contact you to request assistance on behalf of clients or associates of his?

A No.

Q Did anybody else from Mr. Middleton's office ever contact you to request assistance?

A No.

Q When Mr. Middleton worked at the White House, did Yusuf Khapra ever contact you to arrange for assistance on behalf of any matter brought to your attention?

A Not that I recall.

Q Do you know Yusuf Khapra?

A Not well, but I know him, yes.

Q When did you first meet him?

A Sometime during my service at the DNC, I believe in 1994, during that year.

Q Did he ever contact you for any reason?

A My recollection is that he worked with Brian Bailey in setting up the meetings regarding ­­ that I described earlier, and that was the context of our contact, was to invite me to the meetings and make me aware of them.

Q Did you ever receive any contacts in 1995 to provide assistance to the Widjaja family?

A The what?

Q The Widjaja family. Did anybody ever contact you and mention the Widjaja family that you know of?

A Not that I recall.

Q I provide the witness with a document, a memorandum to Richard Sullivan and Mr. Swiller from Anne Braziel, marked DNC 1809003. Take just a moment to look through those.

This memorandum is undated, and it is the only copy that has been provided to us. Do you recall ever having received this memorandum?

A It does not look familiar.

Q Are you able to tell me the year, date of the memo?

A I am not.

Q The first sentence of the memorandum is that Mark Middleton spent some time with me and pledged to help in raising money.

Assuming that that is Anne Braziel he spent some time with, do you recall having any conversations with Anne Braziel about Middleton pledging to help raise money?

A It sounds familiar.

Q Do you recall whether he ever did provide any assistance in giving you names of potential donors to the DNC?

A Not that I had direct contact on. But Mark, having previously assisted in fund­raising, we were, you know, requesting of him to help ­­ I requested him to help from time to time on some additional efforts. Like when I described earlier, Mr. Arnold brought him in to assist.

Q Do you recall having conversations with any DNC colleagues about Mr. Middleton providing names for telephone solicitations?

A I don't remember those conversations, no.

Mr. Wilson. I will mark this document Exhibit AS­2 for the record.

[Swiller Deposition Exhibit No. AS­2

was marked for identification.]

BY MR. WILSON:

Q Did you ever have any conversations that involved the Sinar Mas delegation or Sinar Mas entity?

A No.

Q Do you know what Sinar Mas is?

A No.

Q Do you know whether Mark Middleton ever raised funds for the DNC or any political party outside of the United States?

A This will help, maybe. I don't recall Mark ever raising money in the last 2 years I worked with him, meaning from when Mr. Arnold brought him. So globally I have no knowledge of him ever raising money.

Q That does help. I can't take away quite as many as the last time, but that does help.

When did you first meet Charlie Trie?

A Sometime after I rejoined the DNC in 1993. Sometime in 1994. I don't recall the first meeting.

Q Do you remember who introduced you?

A I don't. I very well may have introduced myself, being that I was the director of the trustee program. Mr. Trie was a member of the program, and I had not met him yet. I may have introduced myself or been introduced by someone. I don't remember the context.

Q Do you remember when you first solicited a contribution from Mr. Trie?

A I don't recall ever soliciting contributions from Mr. Trie.

Q I show the witness a document which is marked Bates number DNC 3078818, and the title is "DNC Finance Executive Summary."

Mr. Pierson. For the record, Counsel, it shows an apparent date in the upper left­hand corner of 12­3­96.

BY MR. WILSON:

Q If you could, explain what the terms "solicitor" and "fund­raiser" mean in this, in the context of this document?

A One of the areas we filled out in our AS400 sheet for assistance in tracking was a solicitor. If someone made the request of a donor to make a contribution that was in the context of trustee, membership could be allocated by money raised. So this was an area that tracked that.

Fund­raiser was the contact or the individual person who received the check, filled out the form, and submitted it.

Q Is it fair to say that if you received ­­ if somebody transmitted a check to you and you filled out the tracking form, that you would generally be listed as the fund­raiser for that event?

A For that event?

Q The event being the filling out of the tracking form for the particular receipt of that check.

A If I filled out a form, I put my name as the fund­raiser.

Q Do you recall any conversations with Mr. Mays on the contributions given by Mr. Trie in 1994?

A I don't.

Q Do you know Richard Mays?

A I do.

Q When did you first meet Mr. Mays?

A I believe I met him during the 1992 campaign cycle.

Q The entry on this document indicates that ­­ actually it doesn't indicate anything. It states, health care campaign.

Could you provide a little bit of explanation of what the health care campaign entry on this document means?

Mr. Pierson. Counsel, for the record, it says 1994 health care campaign.

Mr. Wilson. Correct.

The Witness. We had different efforts constantly going for raising money. It could be a gala event that was upcoming, it would be, as this indicates, the health care campaign effort. If it was a topical effort at the time and the contribution wasn't made in direct correlation to an event, they would attribute it to the issue that we were raising money for at that time.

BY MR. WILSON:

Q Who would make the decision to allocate it to one area or another area?

A It tended to be made either by the fund­raiser or the finance director.

Q Do you recall in this example why the money contributed by Mr. Trie was allocated to the health care campaign in 1994?

A I don't recall.

Q Do you recall whether all funds that you received that were not designated to go to a particular source were allocated to the health care campaign in 1994?

Mr. Pierson. Could you repeat the question again? I am sorry, I think there was a double part. Could you ask it again, please?

BY MR. WILSON:

Q Sure. Was all money that was not allocated to a certain ­­ was not designated by the contributor to go to a certain account allocated to the health care campaign in 1994?

A I don't know. I don't know that it was or was not.

Q Do you recall the dates that contributions were accepted for the 1994 health care campaign account? Maybe instead of just being quite so obtuse, if you could just explain what the 1994 health care campaign was. Was that literally a separate account into which money would go?

A I don't believe it was a separate account. I believe it was separate internal accounting, but I believe all the contributions were to the Democratic National Committee campaign ­­ I mean Democratic National Committee bank accounts. I don't think there were separate accounts. I think internally, just for our accounting, we had separate designations.

Q Is it fair to say the money wasn't segregated into one particular place? The check would be deposited into a general account?

A That would be my understanding of it.

Q Do you recall whether there ever were any separate designated accounts into which checks were deposited? And I am asking for at any time during your working at the DNC.

A My knowledge of accounts were there was a DNC Federal account, DNC non­Federal account, corporate account, there may have been a PAC non­Federal account. But those are the different accounts I recall.

Q Do you recall any specific issue accounts, for example, health care campaign or media fund purchases or anything?

Mr. Pierson. You are talking about bank accounts or internal accounts?

Mr. Wilson. I am talking about bank accounts.

The Witness. As I stated earlier, my knowledge of accounts is what I laid out. This designation is not referring to a separate bank account, I don't think. My knowledge of seeing this is it was a separate internal account within the finance department for internal tracking. That would be my understanding of reading it today.

BY MR. WILSON:

Q On this format, the end of the lines, indicating contributions to the health care campaign, there are what appear to be codes. One is F­01 and the other is N­03. Do you know what those mean?

A I don't know for certain, but my understanding would be that these were probably personal, as it says in the top right corner, individual contributions. So there is a $20,000 limit that an individual can give to a party in a year. So that was probably, then the "F" would mean the Federal account, and then the remaining money would be designated, I assume, non­Federal and would be put into a non­Federal account. That would be my read of it.

Q Do you know what the numerals mean after the letters?

A No.

Q Do you know whether there was a system for providing codes of this sort with a meaning?

A I know that you needed to designate Federal from non­Federal money. Other than that, I am not familiar with how accounting is done.

Q Is this a number that you would have entered on the check tracking form?

A No. It may have been required to enter in certain cases if it was a Federal or non­Federal contribution, but I never made these designations.

Mr. Wilson. I will mark this document Exhibit AS­3 for the record.

[Swiller Deposition Exhibit No. AS­3

was marked for identification.]

BY MR. WILSON:

Q What was the health care campaign?

A As you may recall, the President had an initiative to reform health care. Internally, we thought that we may be able to, for lack of a better word, like spice up our fund­raising if we talked about a certain initiative that was going on that the committee was supporting. So the campaign fund then became sort of a reaction to that.

Mr. Wilson. If we could go off the record for just a moment.

[Brief Recess.]

BY MR. WILSON:

Q Back on the record.

I will show the witness a document which is marked DNC 3078820. The heading is DNC Finance Executive Summary, date 12­3­96.

Have you ever met Mr. Trie's wife, Mrs. Wang Mei Trie?

A Not that I recall.

Q Again, you are listed on this document as the fund­raiser for a contribution of $20,000 from Mrs. Trie. Did you have any contacts with her about this contribution?

A Not that I recall.

Q Do you know who the solicitor of this contribution was?

A It is not listed here, and I don't recall the contribution or the transaction of it.

Mr. Wilson. I will mark this document Exhibit AS­4.

[Swiller Deposition Exhibit No. AS­4

was marked for identification.]

BY MR. WILSON:

Q Did you attend the June 22nd, 1994, Presidential gala, DNC gala?

A Yes, I did.

Q Did you contact Mr. Trie regarding a $100,000 contribution that he gave to the DNC in May of 1994?

A I don't recall that contact, no.

Q Do you recall discussing Mr. Trie's attendance at the 1994 gala?

A No, I don't. Discussing ­­

Q With Mr. Trie.

A No, I don't.

Q Do you recall having discussions with any of your colleagues about Mr. Trie's attendance at the gala in 1994?

A I don't.

Q Were you ever asked to provide a recommendation for Mr. Trie for an apartment that he was attempting to be the renter of at the Watergate?

A I did not. I don't recall that. It doesn't sound familiar.

Q Did you know that David Mercer and Susan Levine had been asked to provide a recommendation for Mr. Trie?

A Not that I recall.

Q Did you ever attend any events at Mr. Trie's apartment in the Watergate?

A Never.

Q Did you ever speak with Martha Shoffner regarding Mr. Trie's move to Washington?

A I am not familiar with that individual.

Q Have you ever met Martha Shoffner?

A Not that I recall.

Q Do you recall having any contacts with Mr. Trie in relation to the August 1994 Presidential birthday fund­raiser?

A No, I do not.

Q I would like to provide a document for the witness. It is marked DNC 1275756. It is a memorandum to Martha Shoffner from David Mercer. It does not have the witness' name on it. I would ask you to just take a moment to look through the content of this memo.

The memo discusses a meeting between Mr. Mercer and Mr. Trie in 1994. Did you attend this meeting?

A Not that I recall, no.

Q Did you ever attend any meetings with Mr. Trie in the accompaniment of Mr. Mercer?

A Not that I recall.

Q The memo refers to a number of events or subjects, and I just want to very quickly ask you a few questions about some of the referenced issues.

In the first paragraph, there is a reference to a meeting before Mr. Trie left for Beijing. Did you ever discuss with Mr. Trie any travels that he took?

A Not that I recall.

Q Were you aware in 1994 that Mr. Trie was planning to travel to Beijing?

A Not that I recall, no.

Q And the fourth paragraph of this memorandum discusses a request for a letter inviting Mr. Trie to serve on the finance board. Were you ever a participant in any discussions about Mr. Trie becoming a member of the finance board at the DNC?

A I was in discussions on the finance board as it relates to Mr. Trie. Individually, I don't have a specific recollection of specific conversations regarding it.

Q Who was in charge of determining who would be on the finance board of directors?

A It was a collective effort of DNC staff.

Q And who were the staff?

A It would be Ms. Hardigan, Richard Sullivan, David Mercer, Erica Payne, Peter O'Keefe. Any of the fund­raising staff, up to 20 individuals.

Q Were you involved in that process?

A Yes, I was.

Q Were there any prerequisites for becoming a member of the finance board of directors?

A There weren't prerequisites, but we were going to ask members to see if they could raise above the limit ­­ not limit, above the threshold for the trustee program; we were going to ask them to raise I believe it was $350,000 in a year.

Q Do you know whether Mr. Trie made a request to be put on the finance board of directors?

A I don't recall that. It was not made to me, but there was a request made.

Q The fifth paragraph of this memorandum discusses a mission to China, and it refers to a Commerce Department mission to China which was to commence on August 27th, 1994.

Did you have any discussions with Mr. Trie about his participating in this Commerce Department mission to China?

A Not that I recall, no.

Q Did you know at the time that there was going to be a Commerce Department mission to China?

A I know there has been one. I don't recall when I became aware of it.

Q Do you recall any conversations or discussions about this particular Commerce Department mission to China?

A No, I don't.

Q Do you recall whether you made any telephone conversations on behalf of Mr. Trie about this trade mission to China?

A Not that I ­­

Mr. Pierson. Made or had?

Mr. Wilson. Made.

Mr. Pierson. Telephone calls on behalf of Mr. Trie?

Mr. Wilson. Yes.

The Witness. Not that I recall, no.

BY MR. WILSON:

Q Were you involved in any conversations by telephone or in person during which Mr. Trie's interest in any type of trade mission or foreign trip with American governmental employees was discussed?

A Not that I recall.

Q Did you ever discuss Mr. Trie's financial contributions with anybody at the White House?

A Not that I recall, no.

Mr. Wilson. Just to back up for a moment, I will mark the document we are discussing, Exhibit AS­5, for inclusion in the record.

[Swiller Deposition Exhibit No. AS­5

was marked for identification.]

BY MR. WILSON:

Q Have you ever met an individual named Ng Lap Seng, also known as Mr. Wu?

A No, not that I recall.

Q Have you ever had any telephone conversations with Mr. Ng Lap Seng?

A No, I have not.

Q Do you recall whether Mr. Trie was ever invited to become a member of the finance board of directors?

A I believe he was. My recollection is he was.

Q Do you know an individual named Ernest Green?

A I do.

Q When did you meet him first?

A I believe I met him upon my return to the DNC, subsequent to that, sometime in 1994.

Q Do you know Jude Kearney?

A I am sorry?

Q Do you know Jude Kearney, K­E­A­R­N­E­Y?

A I know him, yes.

Q Have you met Mr. Kearney in person?

A Yes, I have.

Q And where have you met him?

A In the '92 cycle, as I stated earlier, I was a fund­raiser in the mid­Atlantic region. At that time Mr. Kearney was based in D.C., and I believe I met him in events and he assisted in some fund­raising efforts.

Q Did Mr. Kearney, after you first met him in, I believe you said 1992, did he obtain a job with the government in Washington?

A That is my recollection, that he did.

Q Do you know where he was working after 1992?

A I believe it was either the Commerce Department or at the Treasury Department.

Q Did you attend a breakfast with Mr. Green, Mr. Kearney, Mr. Trie, and Mr. Ng Lap Seng in October of 1994 at the Hay­Adams Hotel?

A Not that I recall, no.

Q Do you know Allen Weinstein?

A The name is not familiar.

Mr. Lu. Was that Allen or Ellen?

Mr. Wilson. Allen.

BY MR. WILSON:

Q Do you know Nancy Jacobson?

A Yes, I do.

Q Who is Ms. Jacobson?

A She was my supervisor in 1992 when I worked on the Clinton campaign. She was again the finance director of the Inaugural Committee when I served as the deputy finance committee. We stayed friendly while I lived in Washington, but I have not spoken to her since approximately 6 months or longer.

RPTS STALLSWORTH

DCMN HERZFELD

[12:00 noon.]

BY MR. WILSON:

Q Do you know where she works?

A My last knowledge of her employment was that she was employed individually, working for herself on a contract basis.

Q Does she have a connection with an organization called Center for Democracy?

A Not that I'm aware of. Not that I know of.

Q Do you know of an organization called Center for Democracy?

A It's a familiar name, yes.

Q Do you know what it does?

A I do not.

Q Have you ever discussed the activities of Center for Democracy with Mr. Trie?

A Not that I recall.

Mr. Pierson. Have you ever discussed contributions that Mr. Trie might or ­­ might have made or might have been considering making to the Center for Democracy?

A Not that I recall.

Q Did you participate in setting up a meeting between Mr. Trie, Winston Bank and Chairman Fowler in 1995?

A Not that I recall.

Q Did you ever participate in any discussions with Mr. Trie about setting up a chapter of an organization called Democrats Abroad in Taiwan?

A Not that I recall.

Q Do you know of an organization called Democrats Abroad, based in Taiwan?

A I know of an organization called Democrats Abroad, but not one based in Taiwan, no.

Q What is Democrats Abroad?

A Just that. It's registered Democrats who are abroad for work in countries throughout the world.

Q Is it an organization that's independent of the DNC?

A That's my understanding, yes.

Q Did you assist with organizing a fund­raiser in November of 1995 at the Car Barn in Washington, D.C.?

A What was it?

Mr. Pierson. November of 1995. November 8, 1995.

The Witness. Not that I recall.

BY MR. WILSON:

Q Did you ever have any discussions with Mr. Trie about an individual named Wang Jun, W A­N­G, J­U­N, attending a Presidential coffee?

A Not that I recall, no.

Q Have you ever had ­­ have you ever met a Wang Jun?

A I have not.

Q Have you had any conversations with him?

A I have not.

Q Do you know who he is?

A I don't.

Q How many times do you recall being contacted by Mr. Trie or one of his representatives in 1995 and 1996?

A I don't recall one contact.

Q You don't recall any contacts at all?

A That's correct, I don't recall any.

Q Have you ever met an individual named Antonio Pan?

A Not that I recall, no, the name is not familiar.

Q Do you know whether Mr. Trie was ever invited to use the President's box at the Kennedy Center?

A Not that I know.

Q Just generally speaking, was Mr. Trie considered a member of the trustee program?

A Yes. The time I was there, he was.

Q And covering the entire time you were employed by the DNC, do you recollect, and this is personally, any interaction with Mr. Trie at all?

A I saw Mr. Trie at some of our events. I think that was the limit of our interaction. He may have stopped by the DNC ­­ he did stop by the DNC a few times where I would say hello, chat with him for a few minutes. But I was primarily not a major contact of his at the DNC, so I didn't have many conversations with him.

Q Who did Mr. Trie contact at the DNC?

A My recollection is that the majority of his contacts were, I believe, with Mr. Mercer.

Q Do you know whether he had contacts with Mr. John Huang?

A Whether who did?

Q Mr. Trie.

A I have no knowledge if he had contacts or not.

Q Do you know of any situations in which Mr. Trie contacted any members of your staff?

A Meaning Ms. Braziel, Ms. Burke?

Q Correct.

A Not that I recall, no.

Mr. Wilson. I'm providing the witness with a document which is marked F 0015575. It's dated, or at least there is a number at the top, 7­21. It says, "Notes for Ari."

BY MR. WILSON:

Q And if you would, there's an arrow pointing to an entry about halfway down the page?

A Uh­huh.

Q It's an arrow that was on the document as produced to us, and it says, "Charlie Trie has 4 SP and 2 WH," dash, dash, "is this right? I" ­­ question mark. "I thought it was 4 total," question mark.

Do you know what this means?

A My understanding what this document looks like is ­­ it was regarding the events at the convention. Anne Braziel, myself, Nancy Burke worked in coordinating some of the hotel accommodations for trustees at the convention. Two of the hotels that we worked with were Sutton Place and the Whitehall Hotel in Chicago. So my read of this would be that, as it says, Charlie Trie has four Sutton Place rooms and two Whitehall rooms. Is that right? I thought he only had four rooms. That was her ­­ this looks like a document that would have been put together by Ms. Braziel. She was sort of coordinating the hotel efforts hand on.

Q Do you recall providing any assistance for Mr. Trie at the convention?

A Not as an individual; provided assistance to trustees collectively. I don't recall specific assistance to Mr. Trie.

Q Do you know whether he made any requests of you ­­ of you?

A Not that I have knowledge of that I recall, no.

Q Did he make any requests of any of the people that you were working with at the convention?

A Well, it looked, from this document, it looks like he made hotel requests, which we probably assisted him with. Other requests are not familiar to me.

Mr. Wilson. This document is marked Exhibit AS­6.

[Swiller Deposition Exhibit No. AS­6

was marked for identification.]

BY MR. WILSON:

Q Did Mr. Trie ever discuss his desire for appointment to a commission or board, a Federal commission or board, with you?

A I don't recall any discussion about this.

Q Do you know of any conversations in which Mr. Trie's name was brought up in conjunction to possible appointment in a commission or a board?

A Not that I recall, no.

Q Did you know that Mr. Trie was interested in being appointed to a Federal commission or board?

A I think I've learned that information subsequent to the campaign in some of the news accounts of it, but not that I recall.

Q Did you ever have any discussions about Mr. Trie with the White House Office of Presidential Personnel?

A Not that I recall, no.

Q Do you know whether either yourself or any individuals in your office were contacted by the White House Office of Presidential Personnel about Mr. Trie?

A I don't recall any contacts, no.

Q Do you know of anybody else at the DNC who was contacted about Mr. Trie by the White House Office of Presidential Personnel?

A Not that I recall or have any knowledge of, no.

Q Do you know of Mr. Trie ever making a contribution to the DNC before 1994? And I'm just asking you, when ­­ I mean, the question really should be, do you recall when Mr. Trie first made a contribution to the DNC?

A My recollection is that Mr. Trie was a member of the trustee program and returned to the DNC. Whether that was through contributions or funds raised, I don't recall.

Q Have you ever met an individual named Tony Shsu, S­H­S­U?

A Not that I recall, no.

Q Have you ever heard of an organization called the Chy Corporation, C­H­Y Corporation?

A No.

Q Do you know Pauline Kanchanalak?

A Yes, I do.

Q When did you first meet Ms. Kanchanalak?

A I believe I met her in the '92 campaign, somewhere when I was serving as a fund­raiser in the Mid­Atlantic region.

Q Do you recall where you met her?

A I don't recall the circumstances of meeting her. I know that she was involved with some of the events in some of the fund­raising we did in the D.C. metro area.

Q Do you recall whether she was a contributor, a financial contributor, in 1992?

A That would be my, in retrospect, reflection now, my understanding why I would have met her, because she was a contributor.

Q Did Ms. Kanchanalak or her sister­in­law Mrs. Kronenberg or any of her employees ever contact you or anyone in your office while you were an employee at the DNC?

A The second time or any time?

Q Actually, let's ­­ we'll break that down. The first time you were at the DNC, and I'll ask you ­­

A I believe I had some contacts with her during the time. I don't recall the context of them. But she was an individual who we may have asked her to participate. I can't remember the contacts because I didn't do that year, but I don't know.

Q And turning to the second stint, your second stint at the DNC, do you recall whether she or her sister­in­law or any of her employees contacted you?

A I did have some contact with Pauline and with Ms. Kronenberg.

Q And do you remember the context of any of those contacts?

A I remember few. One was a request by Ms. Kanchanalak to attend a luncheon that the White House was hosting with the Queen of Thailand. She wanted to be ­­ she requested me to assist her in being included in that event. I recall discussing with her an upcoming White House event which she was going to receive an invitation to. And I had a ­­ my final contact with her was subsequent to the '96 election. She ­­ we had a discussion about her contributions to the DNC at which time she inferred that they were not her contributions, but her mother­in­law's contributions.

Q Do you recall whether you ever arranged for Ms. Kanchanalak to meet with administration officials?

A Not that I recall, no.

Q Was it ever brought to your attention that Ms. Kanchanalak had an interest in the Bureau of Labor Statistics and becoming somehow involved with the Bureau of Labor Statistics?

A I don't recall that at all.

Q Did you ever organize lunches for any DNC contributors at the White House Mess?

A I was aware that some lunches were attended by donors, but I'm trying to recall when I participated in setting them up, and I don't.

Q Do you have any recollection of ­­ of Ms. Kanchanalak or Ms. Kronenberg attending a White House Mess luncheon?

A Not that I recall, no.

Mr. Wilson. I provide the witness with a document which is marked F 0040590. It's a memorandum to Mr. Swiller from Georgie Kronenberg, dated May 11, 1995.

Mr. Pierson. My I make a suggestion that we mark the exhibit when you first identify the document. That way we will have a number we can refer to.

Mr. Wilson. Certainly. I'll mark this exhibit as AS­7.

Mr. Pierson. Thank you.

[Swiller Deposition Exhibit No. AS­7

was marked for identification.]

BY MR. WILSON:

Q The part that I'm particularly interested in is the postscript at the very end of the memoranda which states, "On a different matter, please let me know the amount to reimburse you for the luncheon at the White House Mess which Susan Lavine has kindly organized for us."

Mr. Pierson. Have we established whether or not he's seen this before?

Mr. Wilson. I was just about to ask.

BY MR. WILSON:

Q Are you familiar with this document, that exhibit?

A It's not familiar to me. But ­­

Q Do you recognize there's a handwritten notation on the ­­ towards the top of the first page that says, "File," and that's underlined?

A Yes.

Q Is that your handwriting?

A It looks like it is, yes.

Q Do you have any recollection of any discussions about Ms. Kronenberg providing reimbursement for a White House Mess lunch?

A It ­­ it's not familiar, no.

Q Do you know how ­­ how you would have resolved the request that is made in the postscript? Do you recall passing this along to somebody else's attention?

A No, I don't.

Q Did you ever have any involvement with people's reimbursements for White House mess lunches that you remember?

A No, I don't.

Mr. Wilson. I have a document which is marked Exhibit AS­8, which is provided to the witness. It's a memorandum to the file. It's been premarked F 0018925. It's from Mr. Swiller, and it's regarding a conversation with Ms. Kanchanalak.

[Swiller Deposition Exhibit No. AS­8

was marked for identification.]

Mr. Pierson. Can I see the last document, please, just for a moment?

Thank you. Sorry.

Mr. Wilson. Sure.

BY MR. WILSON:

Q The memo refers to a telephone conversation that you had with Ms. Kanchanalak on November 14, 1996. Do you know ­­ assuming that the ­­ the information contained is correct, did you, in fact, call Ms. Kanchanalak?

A My recollection is she called me.

Q And do you know why she called you?

A Yeah. The context of this memo, she had received some calls about contributions that were being indicated that she had made to the Party. She indicated to a reporter that they were, indeed, not her contributions, but that of her mother­in­law. I guess that became an issue because in our FEC reports or in our internal reporting, it was reflected that the contributions were under Pauline's name and not Praitun's name, which I believe is the name of her mother­in­law. So this was then a conflict which was brought to the attention of our press department, brought to the attention of our counsel, and my conversation clearly states, you know, the context of it ­­ this document states the context of the conversation.

Q Do you know whether Ms. Kanchanalak called anybody else at the DNC before you to impart the information contained in this memo?

A Not that I have knowledge of, no.

Q Okay. Do you know whether she had any subsequent conversations with other DNC employees about the issues discussed in this memorandum?

A Not that I know of, no.

Q Do you know why she called you?

A I believe she had tried to call a few people at the DNC, and some others may not have been available. And I doubt if I was available. And the fact that I had been one of the many contacts of the DNC, she called me as well.

Q Prior to your telephone conversation on November 14th with Ms. Kanchanalak, were you under the impression that contributions that she had conveyed to you were made by her?

A That was very clearly my understanding, yes, that the contributions she made were her contributions.

Q Had she ever told you that the contributions were made by her?

A I don't recall that as a topic of discussion in specific, no.

Q Did Ms. Kanchanalak, during the discussion on November 14, make any reference to Ms. Kronenberg's contributions and the source of Ms. Kronenberg's contributions?

A Not that I recall, no.

Q Do you know whether the memo that we're reviewing now embodies all of the things that Ms. Kanchanalak and you discussed, or were there other matters that you discussed during the telephone conversation?

A No, I believe this covers ­­ the memorandum pretty well covers the conversation, yes.

Q Did you ever, subsequent to your telephone conversation with Ms. Kanchanalak on November 14, '96, did you review her past contributions to the DNC?

A Yes.

Q Did you prepare a memorandum or any written work product that came from that review?

A I don't recall written work product, no.

Q Did you discuss this conversation with anybody else at the DNC?

A Yes.

Q And who did you talk with at the DNC about your November 14 conversation?

Mr. Pierson. Counsel, the DNC is not represented here. You may be inquiring into frivolous conversations, and the privilege may be waived, but we're in a position where, if this ­­ if you're asking about conversations with counsel for the DNC, I'm going to have to instruct the witness that he's going to have to decline to describe the content in order to reserve the privilege. It's not ours, but it's also not ours to waive.

Mr. Wilson. I understand.

Mr. Pierson. So any conversations you had with any lawyer for the DNC about this subject, you can describe who you talked to and that this was the subject, but beyond that, we'll assert the privilege.

Okay. Can you answer the question?

The Witness. I had a conversation with the counsel.

BY MR. WILSON:

Q And the counsel is?

A Joseph Sandler.

Q Did you have any conversations with anybody else at the DNC about your conversation with Ms. Kanchanalak?

A As I recall, I had conversation with Mr. Sullivan and Ms. Supina, S­U­P­I­N­A.

Q In your conversations with Mr. Sullivan and Ms. Supina, did they indicate to you whether they were under the expression that Ms. Kanchanalak was making the contributions personally?

A Yes, they were under the same impression I was, that her contributions were made personally.

Q Now, subsequent to the conversation, you indicated that you did check into Ms. Kanchanalak's previous contribution history. Did you accumulate any materials at this time?

A I recall reviewing some of the past check tracking forms that were attached to contributions she had made, yes.

Q Did you create a file and put the information into a ­­ into an individual file?

A I don't recall the creation of a file. I recall reviewing the documents.

Q The document we're reviewing now is ­­ has a title which is "Memorandum to the File." Do you recall where it ­­ where you put this document after you had drafted it?

A I ­­ my recollection is that I submitted it to our legal counsel.

Q Did you keep a copy of this document for your own files?

A I believe I may have, yes, as I said earlier, and it would have been in the files under "trustee donor," so I probably put it in the Kanchanalak file.

Q Did you provide a copy of this document to anybody else at the DNC, apart from Mr. Sandler?

A I may have ­­ as I recall, I reviewed the document with Mr. Sullivan, but I don't recall providing him an individual copy.

Q Did you transmit this document to anybody outside of the DNC, give it to anybody outside of the DNC?

Mr. Pierson. Other than counsel?

The Witness. No.

BY MR. WILSON:

Q When you looked back over Ms. Kanchanalak's previous contribution history, did you come across any indication of the material that she communicated to you during your conversation on November 14th, any indication that she had communicated to anybody that she would not be making the contributions in her own name?

A No, I did not.

Q When ­­ when Ms. Kanchanalak mentioned to you that she had made an arrangement with Mr. Riser during ­­

Mr. Pierson. Raiser.

Mr. Wilson. Raiser. Thank you.

BY MR. WILSON:

Q ­­ during the 1992 campaign, did she tell you whether this was communicated to anybody else at the time?

A My recollection is that she indicated it was just a discussion between the two of them, and that was the limit of the communication.

Q And do you know what position Mr. Raiser had in 1992?

A Mr. Raiser was one of the two finance cochair's for the Clinton for President campaign. He was based in Washington, D.C.

Q Now, you've indicated that you had discussions with Mr. Sandler about your telephone conversation from November 14th. What did you tell Mr. Sandler?

Mr. Pierson. We have to assert the privilege. And it's ­­ it's only because we're preserving it for the DNC. It's not our privilege to waive.

Mr. Wilson. So it's fair to assume that anything related to the context of Mr. Sandler will be covered by ­­ you will assert privilege over it at this time?

Mr. Pierson. Yes, on this topic.

Mr. Wilson. Sure.

Mr. Pierson. And I should tell you that there are circumstances on the Senate side in which the DNC has waived the attorney/client privilege, but since I don't know what those are, and I don't know what the attitude towards the House side is ­­

Mr. Wilson. Right.

Mr. Pierson. ­­ I just have to preserve the privilege.

Mr. Wilson. Certainly.

BY MR. WILSON:

Q Have you had any subsequent conversations or conversations subsequent to November 14 of 1996 with Ms. Kanchanalak?

A No, I have not.

Q Do you know where she called from? The memo says Thailand, but do you know where in Thailand she called from?

A No I don't.

Q Did she indicate to you whether she intended to return to the United States at any time?

A I don't recall that being part of the discussion.

Q Did she discuss with you why she was in Thailand?

A I don't recall that either.

Q After the November 14 conversation, did you communicate the contents of the telephone conversation to Ernst & Young, the accounting firm conducting the background review of campaign contributions?

A As I stated earlier, I don't recall having any contact whatsoever with any member of Ernst & Young.

Q Do you know whether anybody else at the DNC communicated the contents of your telephone conversation with Ms. Kanchanalak to Ernst & Young?

A Not that I have knowledge of.

Q Did you discuss with Mr. Sullivan or Ms. Supina whether anybody should communicate the contents of your telephone conversation with Ms. Kanchanalak to Ernst & Young?

A That was never part of a discussion as I recall.

Mr. Pierson. Can I have just 2 minutes to talk to Minority counsel just outside in the hallway? It will take 2 minutes.

Mr. Wilson. Yes, if we can go off the record.

[Discussion off the record.]

[Brief recess.]

Mr. Wilson. Back on the record, please.

BY MR. WILSON:

Q Do you know John Huang?

A Yes.

Q When did you first meet Mr. Huang?

A I believe I first met Mr. Huang during the 1992/93 Inaugural Committee, my service there.

Q When did you first hear about Mr. Huang?

A Probably prior to that, part of my responsibility is we're coordinating lists of the top fund­raisers and contributors for ­­ across the country, for the finance department of the Inaugural Committee. I believe that's when I probably first ran across the name.

Q Did you ever have any contacts with Mr. Huang while he was employed by LippoBank in California?

A Not that I recall, no. Let me restate. I believe that my contacts with him during the Inaugural, my understanding is that he may still at that time have been an employee of the bank.

Q Were ­­ were those social contacts, or did you have any fund­raising contacts with him?

A He assisted in a contribution that I believe came from the LippoBank or from him for part of the events going on during the Inaugural Committee, so ­­ as far as fund­raising, that was the context of it.

Q Did you speak with anybody regarding Mr. Huang's appointment to the ­­ his position at the Commerce Department?

A Not that I recall, no.

Q Did you have any contacts with Mr. Huang while he was at the Commerce Department?

A I don't recall the specific conversations, but I believe I did have a contact with him.

Q Did he contact you this period?

A I believe I made the initial outreach to Mr. Huang in the context of my returning to the DNC in '93, '94.

Q And if you could describe in more detail the reason for your contacting him?

A Mr. ­­ My ­­ there are two contacts. My recollection is that Mr. Huang had been a fund­raiser for the '92 campaign effort. I called him, I believe, to secure from him any names that I may then reach out to in the context of my position at the DNC, and also his wife was a contributor to the party at that time, but lived in California. So I may have made contacts to him in reference to his wife's participation with the party.

Q Did you ­­ have you ever communicated directly with Mr. Huang's wife?

A I have met her. I've talked to her.

Q Where have you met her?

A I met her at functions in Washington, galas.

Q Did you ever seek Mr. Huang's assistance in setting up meetings while he was at the Department of Commerce?

A Not that I recall.

Q Did you ever contact Mr. Huang about arranging for individuals' participation in trade missions while he was at the Department of Commerce?

A Not that I recall.

Q How did Mr. Huang come to be hired as a fund­raiser at the DNC?

A I only know what I've learned in the last few months. I don't ­­ didn't know the context then. So if you want me to reflect upon what I ­­

Q If you would. What do you know now about Mr. Huang's coming to be hired as a fund­raiser at the DNC?

Mr. Lu. And you want his recollection even if it's from news accounts?

Mr. Wilson. Well, I would like to know what he knows now, yeah.

Mr. Lu. Okay.

The Witness. As I said, my recollection is what I've heard in the news, that Mr. Huang was brought to the attention of Mr. Sullivan by I believe it was Mr. Ickes or someone else that he was someone interested in assisting in fund­raising.

BY MR. WILSON:

Q Were you aware of ­­ of Mr. Huang meeting with individuals at the DNC just prior to his being hired at the DNC as a fund­raiser?

A No. I ­­ not that I recall.

Q Did you ever see him over at the DNC prior to his being offered the position as a fund­raiser of the DNC?

A Not that I recall, no.

Q Did Mr. Huang ever visit you at the DNC?

A Prior ­­

Q Prior to his becoming a member of the fund­raising staff?

A Not that I recall, no.

Q Did you ever visit Mr. Huang at the Department of Commerce?

A No I did not.

Q Did Mr. Huang ever speak with you about his becoming a member of the fund­raising staff at the DNC prior to his becoming a member of the fund­raising staff?

A Not that I recall.

Q When Mr. Huang was hired by the DNC, did you ever have discussions with him about fund­raising staff training?

A He and I individually?

Q Yes.

A Not that I recall, no.

Q Did you ever have any discussions with Mr. Huang about the law as it applies to fund­raising in political campaigns?

A Not that I recall.

Q Do you know whether he was given instructions on the law as it pertains to fund­raising and political campaigns?

A I don't recall his specific tutoring of those laws. We, on a ­­ maybe once a year, as a finance staff got together and briefed in a group. But I don't know of John receiving any specific individual instruction on the law.

Q Do you recall ever ­­ do you recall ever attending any seminars or instructional meetings about the law and campaign financing with Mr. Huang?

A I don't recall if Mr. Huang was at any of them. My recollection would be that he would be, because the whole staff was invited to them. But Mr. Huang traveled a bit, so I don't know if he was at the ones which I attended.

Q Did Mr. Huang ever seek your advice or counsel on any campaign contributions that he was soliciting?

A No, he did not.

Q Did he ­­ did he ever discuss with you ­­ did he ever discuss with you your fund­raising activities?

A Not that I recall, no. He ­­ but ­­ I was being the director of the trustee program, he may have had individuals who he solicited contributions that made them trustees, then he would then provide myself with those names. That would sort of be the context.

Q Aside from the transmission of the name and the check and basic information about the contributor, did you have any discussions with Mr. Huang about any individuals who were being solicited for campaign contributions?

A No, not that I recall.

Q Do you remember whether he ever sat down with you and had a conversation about what he was doing as a fund­raiser at the DNC?

A I don't recall it.

Q Do you recall whether you called him and asked him things about ­­ how his job was going or what he was doing as fund­raiser for the DNC?

A I don't recall that type of conversation.

Q Is it ­­ is it fair to characterize, then, your recollection is not having any contacts with Mr. Huang at all on any substantive issues while he was employed at the DNC?

A We had social contacts, but substantive, that's correct.

Q Do you know anything about Mr. Huang's compensation at the DNC?

A Only what I've read subsequent to the campaign in the news.

Q Prior to November of 1996, did you know anything about Mr. Huang's compensation?

A I remember knowing that he was a compensated employee and wasn't in the position as a volunteer, but I didn't know the sum that he was being compensated.

Q Did you know ­­ did you know whether there was an agreement to supplement his compensation, depending on how much ­­ how many contributions he raised?

A I had no knowledge of that. If I had, I would have asked for it for myself.

Q Were you ever involved with Mr. Huang in setting up fund­raising events?

A The only context I can think of was when we worked ­­ when the finance staff as a team worked on the large gala. He and I directly on one specific event, no, there was never an occasion with just the one of us.

Q And that was the 1996 gala that you're referring to?

A Yes.

Q Were you aware of any controversy within the DNC regarding Mr. Huang's being involved in setting up events that included the President?

A Not prior to November of '96.

Q Did any of your DNC colleagues have discussions with you about Mr. Huang's job performance while he was a fund­raiser at the DNC?

A Not that I recall, no.

Q Did you ever have any communications with White House employees during which you discussed Mr. Huang's performance as a DNC fund­raiser?

A No, I don't recall any.

Q Did you have any conversations with any employees of other executive branch agencies during which you discussed Mr. Huang's fund­raising responsibilities?

A No, not that I recall.

Q Did Mr. Huang ever request you to provide him with lists of contacts in order for him to approach people to solicit donations?

A I believe it ­­ we may have discussed a list of California contributors, but I don't recall him requesting contacts from me to provide them.

Q Did you ever provide him with any information?

A I believe we had a discussion on who were active trustee participants from California, since he had participated in that region.

Q Did you send him anything written following this discussion?

A I may have provided him a copy of the State lists for California of trustees.

Q Did Mr. Huang specifically request information about California?

A I can recall that being a ­­ a discussion in the context that he had been active in California fund­raising prior.

Q Did you ever send Mr. Huang a list of all of the trustees or managing trustees at any time when he was a fund­raiser at the DNC?

A No, not that I recall.

Q Do you know whether he ever requested such a list?

A I have no recollection of such request.

Q Did ­­ are you aware of any contacts between Mr. Huang and any of the individuals that you have named as being part of your office staff?

A No, I'm not aware of contacts.

Q Did Mr. Huang ever share any information with you? Did he ever provide you with a list of individuals or names?

A I don't recall ever getting names from him.

Q Do you recall ever receiving any information from Mr. Huang?

A As I mentioned earlier, in the context of being a trustee director and providing people that made the requisite contribution, that was the context, I believe, the information he provided me.

Q Did he ever provide anything other than a check and a check tracking form, if indeed he provided you that? I mean, did you receive checks and check tracking forms from Mr. Huang?

A No. I never received checks from Mr. Huang. I don't remember the format he used to provide the names and addresses. They may have been photocopies of check tracking forms, or he may have typed out a list, but I don't recall.

Q Now, why would Mr. Huang have occasion to provide any information to you?

A All fund­raisers provided the trustee department with information of, you know, as I stated earlier, people who had raised the requisite amount of money or contributed, so that they were correctly listed, properly listed on our trustee list. So in that context, he would have had provided that information.

Q Did he send you the check tracking forms of all of the people that he solicited contributions from?

A No, he did not.

Q Did he ­­ did he send you check tracking forms from a number of individuals from whom he solicited contributions?

A As I stated earlier, I don't recall how he provided the information for the trustee lists, whether it was photocopies of tracking forms or if it was a typed list. People provided that information to my department both ways. Some just gave us an additional photocopy, others would do a more thorough­type list, and I don't remember how John, Mr. Huang provided that information.

Q Do you recall whether he ever provided for you additional biographical information on any individuals?

A I don't recall that.

Q Did you ever participate in any discussions with DNC colleagues about whether Mr. Huang was providing information sufficient to provide the FEC with the required information on campaign donors?

A I don't recall such discussion. I don't recall.

Q Do you know whether Mr. Huang traveled out of the United States while he was employed as a fund­raiser at the DNC?

A I have since read about that since the November election, but prior to that I did not know that.

Q Do you recall any discussion about Mr. Huang traveling prior to ­­ and this ­­ this I'm asking for your recollection. Prior to November 1996, do you recall any discussions relating to Mr. Huang and his travel schedule?

A No, I don't recall any.

Q Do you know who would have approved Mr. Huang's travel requests?

Mr. Pierson. Any travel requests?

Mr. Wilson. Correct.

The Witness. No, I ­­ in the context of how I would do it, it would be the finance chairman or the finance director. I don't know if it was the same for John, but I ­­ I don't know how he had his travel approved.

BY MR. WILSON:

Q And does your answer indicate that that's the process that you would follow ­­

A Un­huh.

Q ­­ when you were seeking ­­

A Correct.

Q ­­ travel approval?

A Correct. The process I assume most finance staff proceeded with.

Q What did you have to do to obtain approval for travel?

A Generally, you didn't have to obtain it, you were told that you were going somewhere, so you needed to just fill out a form that was then submitted to the person who had purchased the tickets with your times and dates of departure.

Q Do you know whether Mr. Huang ever solicited contributions ­­ strike that question, please.

Was there a system at the DNC to keep track of how much individual fund­raisers raised?

A I don't know if there was a system set up for that, but you could run that, my understanding, through the AS400. And as we looked at documents earlier, where it said "fund­raiser," you could, I believe, sort by that field and get a list run of who was involved in raising what funds.

Q Do you recall ever seeing a list of the aggregate contributions raised by Mr. Huang?

A No, I don't recall ever seeing that.

Q Did you ever print up for yourself a list of the aggregate contributions for which you were named as the fund­raiser?

A I would have to request that, because I wasn't familiar with running the lists on the AS400 system.

Q Did you ever request that for yourself? And I'm speaking about for yourself as the fund­raiser, not Mr. Huang at all. But did you ever request that you run a list of all of the contributions that you were listed as the fund­raiser of?

A I never requested it. I recall seeing one, but it was not at my request.

Q Where did you see the one that you recall seeing?

A I believe Ms. Stirk may have had a copy of it.

Q Do you know if she ­­ why she would have had a copy of it such a list?

A I don't recall. No.

Q Do you know whether spreadsheets indicating aggregate contributions produced by individual fund­raisers were printed up for everybody?

A I have no knowledge of that.

Q The printout that you just mentioned with aggregate contributions wherein you were listed as the fund­raiser, did that include all of the years for your employment as a fund­raiser at the DNC?

A I believe it was ­­ as I recall, it was in ­­ sometime in '95, so it included the year and a half prior to it.

Q Did anybody at the DNC ever tell you that Mr. Huang might be accepting contributions from non­U.S. citizens?

A No. I don't recall ever having such a discussion.

Q Did anybody from outside the DNC ever tell you that Mr. Huang might be accepting contributions from non­U.S. citizens?

A Not that I recall, no.

Q Do you recall any discussions during which it was suggested that Mr. Huang might be accepting contributions from non­U.S. citizens?

A No. I don't recall it.

Q Do you recall when you last had personal contact with Mr. Huang?

A I believe it was sometime during the summer of '96.

Q Did you ever visit him in his offices when he was a DNC fund­raiser?

A As I recall, he did not have an office. It was sort of in a cubicle area. And I may have visited him and seen other people or ­­ but I don't recall him having a physical office space.

Q Where was the cubicle located?

A My recollection is it's in the basement level of the DNC.

Q And where was your office?

A On the third floor.

Q And the cubicle that Mr. Huang used, what office was it attached to? Or who was ­­ who had the other cubicles around that cubicle?

A The ­­ what we call like the road staff, the road fund­raisers, people who travel in and out from events around the country. There was an area where they had a desk for a little while while they were in town .

Q Were you aware if Mr. Huang had an office at another location in Washington?

A I was not aware of that.

Q Do you know if anybody at the DNC has been in contact with Mr. Huang subsequent to November of 1996?

A I don't know of any contacts.

Q Have you had any contacts with Mr. Huang since November of 1996?

A I have not.

Q Did you ever have any discussions with Mr. Huang as to why he left the Department of Commerce?

A I don't recall such a discussion.

Q Did you ever express any concern to either Mr. Huang or DNC colleagues about a fund­raiser at the Sheraton Carlton Hotel in Washington, D.C., that Mr. Huang was an organizer of?

A I don't recall the event.

Q Did you know of the event at the time?

A It does not sound familiar.

Q Were you aware of Mr. Huang's participation in organizing a fund­raiser at the Shilla temple in California? Were you aware prior to 19 ­­ to November of 1996 about this particular fund­raising event?

A I was not.

Mr. Wilson. I've provided the witness with a document which has been marked exhibit AS­9. It was premarked with a Bates number that was cut off in the copying process, not cut off by us, but cut off by the people that copied it before it was transmitted to us. Its Bates number begins DNC 312837, and then the other numbers are obscure. It's titled "DNC Finance Executive Summary," and there's a handwritten notation on the bottom.

[Swiller Deposition Exhibit No. AS­9

was marked for identification.]

BY MR. WILSON:

Q Do you recognize the handwriting on this?

A I do.

Q You do.

A Uh­huh.

Q And whose handwriting is that?

A To me it looks like the handwriting of mat Gobush Matt Gobush.

Q And who is Mr. Gobush?

A He had served at some ­­ for some time as the staff assistant for the trustee program.

Q What is the TRULIST?

A It would it would be trustee list. My recollection would be an abbreviation for trustee list.

Q And do you know why this notation has been written on this document?

A No, I don't recall.

Q Was ­­ was Mr. Huang a member of the trustee program prior to his going to the Department of Commerce?

A My recollection was that he was on the trustee list when I returned to the DNC in November of ­­ in December of '93.

Q And do you recall whether his name was taken off the trustee list?

A I recall that he may have ­­ in looking at this, he may have lapsed as a trustee, because he did not maintain the level of contribution or fund­raising necessary to be a trustee. So, you know, it would lead me to think that this was then ­­ he was then deleted from the trustee list, because he was no longer an active participant at the requisite level.

Q Do you know if anybody contacted him to attempt to obtain from him requisite contributions to get him back on the trustee roster?

A Not that I recall.

Q When ­­ when Mr. Huang was an employee of the DNC, were you aware of whether he had any relationship with Charlie Trie?

A I did not know if they had or did not have a relationship.

Q Do you know whether they ever had worked together on a fund­raising issues?

A Not that I'm ­­ not that I have specific knowledge of, no.

Q Did Mr. Trie in any of his conversations with you ever mention Mr. Huang to you?

A Not that I recall, no.

Q Did Mr. Huang in any conversations with you mention Mr. Trie?

A No, not that I recall.

Q I would like to go off the record if we could.

[Discussion off the record.]

[Lunch recess, 1:00 p.m.]

RPTS COCHRAN

DCMN BURRELL

[1:42 p.m.]

BY MR. WILSON:

Q If we could go back on the record, please.

Have you ever met Johnny Chung?

A I have.

Q And where have you met Mr. Chung?

A I met him at a few events we did while I was at the DNC, and I also met him when he came to the DNC. I visited with him there. I also paid a visit to his office in California.

Q When did you visit his office in California?

A It was while I was working on an event in California in spring, I think either late March­April of 1995.

Q And why did you visit his office?

A I was responsible for a fund­raiser that we were working on in California, in Los Angeles, so I was contacting all of the trustees who had been supportive in the past, trying to get their support for that event, or to identify other individuals who may also want to be supportive.

So in that context, I contacted all the trustees on the list, and Johnny was one of many who I visited with.

Q What was the fund­raiser that you were working on?

A We did a high dollar couples events at the home of Steven Spielberg that the President attended. The contributions were made to the DNC for those who attended.

Q And when you visited Mr. Chung, what did you discuss at his office?

A I remember discussing a few things. I remember he had an office that had pictures of Mr. Chung and every elected official I think since Lincoln on the walls, Republican and Democrat, and I mean we discussed the fund­raiser. I remember he was bringing additional couples and I told him that that would require additional contributions for the event.

Q Do you recall how much Mr. Chung contributed to that event?

A My recollection is he made one individual check contribution of $125,000.

Q And how many individuals did he take as guests to that fund­raiser?

A I believe total there were three couples, he and his wife included.

Q When you visited him at his office, was it a few days before the fund­raiser you are speaking of, or was it well in advance of the fund­raiser you are speaking of?

A I was only in California about two weeks prior to the event, and it was in that time frame, so in the two weeks prior.

Q Did Mr. Chung ever visit you in your office at the DNC?

A Yes, he did.

Q And approximately how many occasions did Mr. Chung visit you in your office?

A We had ­­ no visits were necessarily scheduled for me. He would come to the DNC on occasion by himself or with a few individuals and would stop by. So I would say maybe three or four times that he stopped by my office to say hello while he was visiting the DNC.

Q On these occasions, did he ever bring other individuals with him?

A On a couple I recall he did.

Q Who did he bring with him on the visits he made to your office?

A I remember him ­­ I don't remember the individuals, but I remember him identifying them as being partners of his or business associates.

Q And did he discuss what their businesses were?

A Not that I recall, no.

Q Do you have any general recollection of what the individuals that came with him to your office did for a living?

A I don't.

Q Approximately how many contributions ­­ actually, if you could, just describe the various contributions that you solicited from Mr. Chung?

A I don't recall other contributions that I solicited directly from him. That was the major contribution that I was involved with. There are other people who worked with Mr. Chung. I am trying to think ­­ I don't remember dates and other contributions, that is one that sticks out, the one I described earlier.

Q Who else at the DNC worked with Mr. Chung?

A Mr. Sullivan, Mr. Fowler, Mr. Fowler's executive assistant, Carol Khare. Those were the primary contacts.

Q Do you know whether Mr. Chung ever contacted members of the staff in your office?

A No, I believe he dealt with me in my department.

Q Did you keep a trustee file for Mr. Chung?

A I am sure it was included with the other members of the trustees, yes.

Q Do you recall the contents of this file?

A I assume like other files, it would have, as I discussed earlier, copies of checks, tracking forms, a bio. If we sent letters or correspondence to him, we may have kept a record of those.

Q Do you recall whether you kept any photographs of Mr. Chung with other dignitaries?

A I don't recall keeping any photographs at all of any individuals, so I don't think I would have any.

Q Did you, prior to November of 1996, have any misgivings about Mr. Chung as a contributor?

A No, I did not.

Q Had you ever asked anybody to perform any background research on Mr. Chung?

A Not that I recall, no.

Q Did you ever receive any background research about Mr. Chung?

A I don't recall that.

Q From other offices?

A No, I don't recall ever receiving any.

Q How frequently would you communicate with Mr. Chung?

A It was sporadic. I tended to communicate with him closer to an event that may be in California that he would be interested in participating in, and at that time I could contact him maybe two or three times in the weeks prior. Other than that, it was infrequent. Once every other month would be a high number, I think.

Q I have a document which I will mark Exhibit AS­10.

[Swiller Deposition Exhibit No. AS­10

was marked for identification.]

BY MR. WILSON:

Q I will provide that for the witness. It is a memorandum to Richard Sullivan from David Mercer, and it is a list that had been requested purportedly by Mr. Sullivan for a Vice Presidential luncheon on 9­21, which is presumably 1994. The document is dated September 14, 1994.

It mentions that this is a pool of some of the best raisers and writers to draw from.

Do you recall ever having seen this document?

A I do not.

Q Was there a list kept of the more significant contributors or the best campaign solicitors from outside of the DNC staff that you were aware of in the DNC?

A Not to my knowledge, no.

Q Did colleagues of yours at the DNC have any discussions with you about Mr. Chung and mention to you that he was one of the better or best fund­raisers from amongst contributors to the DNC?

A We discussed that he made large contributions. I don't recall him being much of a fund­raiser.

Q Are you aware of Mr. Chung ever soliciting contributions from anybody else?

A Not that I can recall, no.

Q Is it fair to say then that your interactions with him led you to believe that he was contributing money merely himself and not soliciting funds from anybody else?

A Correct.

Q Did you ever have any concerns that funds contributed by Mr. Chung might not be his own funds?

A No, I did not.

Q Did you ever have any conversations where anybody else at the DNC expressed concerns that funds contributed by Mr. Chung might not be his own funds?

A No, not that I can recall.

Q Did you ever have any conversations with anybody outside of the DNC about Mr. Chung's fund­raising contributions?

A Not that I can recall, no.

Q Do you have any recollections of whether anybody at the White House ever contacted you to ask you any questions about Mr. Chung?

A No, not that I can recall.

Q Do you know whether anybody from any of the Executive Branch agencies contacted you and asked questions about Mr. Chung?

A I don't recall that.

Q Do you recall any instances where Mr. Chung asked you to do anything for him?

A No, I don't recall specific instances. I recall ­­ Johnny ­­ Mr. Chung was always concerned with receiving photographs of events, so he was always calling after events to get ­­ to expedite sort of getting him photographs of himself with the dignitary at the event. But those were the events that come to mind.

Q Did you ever help to arrange for Mr. Chung to meet with any administration employees?

A No, not that I recall.

Q Did you ever receive any requests from Mr. Chung about government trade missions?

A No, I did not.

Q Did Mr. Chung ever mention John Huang to you?

A I don't recall that in any conversation, no.

Q Do you recall whether you ever made any requests of any White House employees on behalf of Mr. Chung?

A No, not that I recall.

Q Were you aware in 1995 that Mr. Chung and a number of Chinese businessmen attended a Presidential radio address?

A I have subsequently found out about it, but at the time I didn't. I don't have a recollection of knowing about it.

Q Do you recollect any conversations wherein somebody else might have mentioned Mr. Chung's attendance at a radio address with the President?

A No, I don't.

Q In the subsequent knowledge that you have gained about this particular event, did you know ­­ do you know any of the individuals that Mr. Chung attended the radio address with?

A No, I don't.

Q Had you ever met any of those individuals?

A I may have, but none of the names are familiar to me.

Q Were you aware of any requests being made by anybody at the DNC of the National Security Council about Mr. Chung?

A No, I was not.

Q Did anybody ever mention to you prior to November of 1996 that Mr. Robert Suettinger had once described Mr. Chung as a hustler?

A No.

Q Were you ever aware that ­­ did anybody ever suggest to you that Mr. Chung had ever been approached by either White House or DNC employees in conjunction with contributions to retire debts from the White House Christmas party?

A That is not something I am familiar with, no.

Q I am providing the witness with a document marked Exhibit AS­11.

[Swiller Deposition Exhibit No. AS­11

was marked for identification.]

BY MR. WILSON:

Q This is addressed to Mr. Johnny Chung. It is dated August 21, 1995, and the signature blocks are those of Richard Sullivan and Mr. Swiller, and the text of the letter is one sentence: "Thought you would be interested in the enclosed." Do you have any recollection of signing this letter?

A I don't.

Q Do you have any recollection of this letter at all?

A No.

Q This takes me away from Mr. Chung for a moment, but did you keep copies of signed letters in your files?

A On occasion. As I referred to earlier, and this may be a case of it, we would send letters accompanying photographs from events that were DNC­sponsored events in which donors would attend the event with the President. This may be such a case where enclosed items were photographs.

Q Did you personally keep a correspondence file of all the correspondence that you sent out to individuals?

A I didn't, because the scale was so high, and, you know, it was letters like these which really were one sentence, two sentence letters. It would have been, I think, a wasteful exercise.

Q What types of signed correspondence would you keep?

A I would once in awhile keep similar correspondence like these or letters of invitation to an event. I would sometimes keep those on file because people would sometimes say they never received them and I could refer back to the reference point.

Mr. Lu. Before we move away from this document, I think all of us concede the document is unsigned. I just want the record to be clear that is an unsigned letter and there has been no testimony it was even sent out.

BY MR. WILSON:

Q Were you aware or have you ever been aware that Mr. Chung spoke with Richard Sullivan about going on a trade mission to China with Commerce Secretary Ron Brown?

A That is not something that is familiar to me, no.

Q I am providing the witness with a document marked Exhibit AS­12, which is a March 1, 1995 dated document to Kathleen from Richard Sullivan/Ari Swiller.

[Swiller Deposition Exhibit No. AS­12

was marked for identification.]

BY MR. WILSON:

Q Do you recall ever having seen this document before?

A I don't recall it.

Q The memo refers to a planned meeting between ­­ or a meeting requested by Mr. Chung. Do you know whether this meeting ever took place?

A I can't say for certain.

Q Did you typically prepare briefing materials for Chairman Fowler or any other DNC employees involving meetings with individuals who were trustee members?

A Yes.

Q Do you recall ever participating in any meetings with Mr. Chung and Chairman Fowler?

A I can ­­ there is one that comes to mind, yes.

Q Do you remember when that meeting was?

A I believe it was sometime in 1995. I don't remember the exact date.

Q And what was discussed at that meeting?

A The reason why it comes to mind, I remember Mr. Chung informing Mr. Fowler that he was going to make a personal effort to try to win the freedom of a gentleman named Harry Wu, I believe ­­ Henry Wu or Harry Wu. At the time he had become imprisoned and it was a highlighted case by the Chinese government.

Q And do you recall what Mr. Fowler said in this meeting?

A I don't recall what he said to Mr. Chung. I recall afterwards we were sort of in disbelief at Mr. Chung's idea that he could play a role. But I am sure, you know, Mr. Fowler was pleasant in his conversation with him.

Q Do you have a recollection of the sense of what was communicated to Mr. Chung?

A I am sure Mr. Fowler thanked him for his support of the DNC and wished him luck in his endeavors, but I don't recall any offer of support from the DNC, because we never got involved in those sorts of affairs.

Q Do you know whether Mr. Fowler told Mr. Chung that the DNC would not be supportive of Mr. Chung's endeavors?

A I think it was understood. I don't remember him directly saying that.

Q Do you know if Mr. Chung met with Richard Sullivan and Chairman Fowler at any time in 1995 at the White House mess?

A I don't have recollection of such a meeting, no.

Q You had mentioned earlier that Mr. Chung had made ­­ I should ask you this, because I don't recall exactly what you said. But did Mr. Chung ever contact you specifically about obtaining photographs that had been taken with himself and other individuals?

A Yes, he did.

Q Did he ever contact you in regard to photographs that were taken of himself and business associates at the Presidential radio address?

A No, he did not, that I recall.

Q Do you recall which photographs he did contact you about?

A The photographs I recall being requested were ones in connection to the event where I solicited the contribution from Mr. Chung at the home of Mr. Spielberg.

Q Do you recall any other requests from Mr. Chung about photographs?

A No, that is the one that comes to mind.

Q Did Chairman Fowler or Richard Sullivan ever request that you find photographs involving Mr. Chung?

A Not that I can recall, no.

Q Did you ever provide photographs for Mr. Fowler or Chairman Dodd or Mr. Sullivan for their review prior to their being sent out to individuals?

A Not as far as Mr. Fowler or Mr. Dodd. On occasion if I couldn't identify certain people in a group of photos I was given, I would ask Mr. Sullivan for his input on who they might be. But I don't recall ever being requested to provide them with photos, no.

Q I will ask the same question for after photographs have been sent out. Did anybody after the fact ask you to find a photograph or track down a photograph that had been sent out previously to an individual for purpose of reviewing the photograph?

A "Anyone" meaning?

Q I apologize, "anyone" meaning Chairmen Dodd, Fowler, or Mr. Sullivan?

A Mr. Sullivan may have. I don't recall requests like that ever coming from Mr. Fowler or Mr. Dodd.

Q Do you know an individual whose name is Sheng Huaren, S­H­E­N­G H­U­A­R­E­N?

A The name is not familiar to me, no.

Q Are you familiar with the China Everbright Group?

A I am not.

Q Do you recall whether you have ever heard that name before?

A I don't recall hearing it before, no.

Q Do you recall ever having heard the name of a Mr. Qiu Qing, which is spelled Q­I­U Q­I­N­G?

A No, I don't recall that name.

Q Have you ever met Roger Tamraz?

A Yes, I have.

Q Where have you met Mr. Tamraz?

A I met Mr. Tamraz for the first time at the Democratic National Committee.

Q Was this the convention or a meeting?

A At the committee. At the headquarters.

Q Okay. And what was the occasion of meeting Mr. Tamraz?

A I had, as my department often did, sent solicitations to businesses across the country informing individuals and corporations about the program and encouraging them to support it. In response to that, I received a call from a partner of Mr. Tamraz who indicated to me that he or his partner were interested in participating at the trustee or possibly the managing trustee level and wanted to come to Washington to discuss that.

Since the level is high, they had offered to come to Washington, I asked to set up a meeting with Mr. Fowler at the DNC. The person who came representing the company was Mr. Tamraz, and that is the first time I met or spoke to him, was when he came to the DNC.

Q The initial contact from Mr. Tamraz or his associate, what was the form of that contact?

A They phoned me.

Q And do you recall when Mr. Tamraz came and met with you?

A It was in July of 1995.

Q How long was the meeting after the telephone call took place?

Mr. Pierson. Are you talking about the meeting in Chairman Fowler's office?

BY MR. WILSON:

Q No, let me clarify this, because I don't want to muddy this issue. Is it correct to say that you met with Mr. Tamraz, just the two of you the first time?

A That is not correct.

Q Okay. Just if you could, just explain. Mr. Tamraz came in and met with yourself and other individuals. Who were the other individuals?

A His initial meeting was with myself and Chairman Fowler, and after that meeting, there was immediately following a follow­up meet with myself and Mr. Tamraz which Mr. Pastrick attended part of.

Q And the first meeting, where did that occur?

A In Mr. Fowler's office at the Democratic National Committee.

Q And where did the second meeting occur?

A It occurred in an office adjacent to mine that was used ­­ that was set aside for the finance chairman.

Q Did you ever prepare any memoranda about the initial meeting with Mr. Tamraz?

A I don't recall in this case the memoranda I proposed for this meeting, but it was customary that I did provide a little bit of information.

Q I will provide the witness with a document which was marked Exhibit AS­13. If you could take a minute just to look at this.

[Swiller Deposition Exhibit No. AS­13

was marked for identification.]

Mr. Pierson. For the record, counsel, this is several documents. The first one is DNC 3116350. The last one is DNC 3116355. They appear to be sequential.

Mr. Wilson. Just to clarify, it appears the last two pages of the document may be out of sequence, 55 followed by 54. I just want to check that you have the same.

Mr. Pierson. Mine are in sequence.

Mr. Wilson. Okay.

(Discussion off the record.)

BY MR. WILSON:

Q The first page of that which I provided you has just the handwritten notation "Roger Tamraz" on it. Do you recognize this writing?

A I do not.

Q Turning your attention to the document marked DNC 3116354, which is a memo from Mr. Sullivan, Mr. Swiller, to Roger Tamraz, it discusses contributions and the date is March 28th, 1996. Do you recall preparing this memorandum?

A I recall being asked for the information on this memorandum, correct.

Mr. Pierson. That wasn't what he asked you. He asked you whether you prepared it.

The Witness. I don't believe I prepared this memorandum.

BY MR. WILSON:

Q Did you supply the information that is in this memorandum?

A Yes.

Q Who asked you for that information?

A My recollection is that Mr. Sullivan did.

Q Did you keep records of contributions that Mr. Tamraz made to organizations other than the DNC?

A Yes, I did.

Q And for what purpose did you keep such records?

A To keep a sum of contributions Mr. Tamraz made to Democratic affiliated campaigns.

Q Who provided you with this information?

A In the case of a lot of these contributions, Mr. Tamraz forwarded them to the DNC office.

Q What did Mr. Tamraz forward to the DNC office?

A The contributions.

Q And by that do you mean he actually forwarded a check directly to the DNC office?

A Correct.

Q And in situations like that, what would the DNC do with those things?

A They tended to be sent to the entity that they were directed to with an accompanying letter.

Q Were records of those contributions kept by the DNC?

A I believe in some cases they were, yes.

Q And how were the records kept?

A My recollection is that there was a list comprised by a woman named Theresa Stark of contributions sent to DNC that were for entities that weren't the DNC.

Q Do you know whether this information was entered in the AS 400 computer database?

A I don't know for certain, no.

Q Did Mr. Tamraz ever discuss with you campaign contributions?

A Yes, he did.

Q Did you have discussions about campaign contributions to entities other than the DNC?

A Yes, I did.

Q Did you provide any recommendations as to whom he should make campaign contributions?

A Yes, I did.

Q Why did you ­­ the campaign contributions, just referring to the ones on the memorandum we are examining, the March 28, 1996 memorandum, why did you suggest that Mr. Tamraz contribute to the entities listed on this memo?

A I don't recall the exact conversation on the ones that sit on this memo.

Q Had you ever received instructions from any other DNC employees as to where campaign contributions might be made?

A From Mr. Tamraz?

Q From anybody, other than the DNC.

A Yes, I did.

Q Who would give those instructions?

A The ones I recall were either Mr. Fowler or Mr. Sullivan.

Q Did you ever receive any memoranda that outlined these types of instructions?

A Not that I can recall, no.

Q Is your recollection that the communications you had were solely verbal?

A Yes, that is correct.

Q Did you discuss these particular contributions with Mr. Tamraz?

A The ones listed on the memorandum?

Q Yes.

A I don't recall a specific discussion of these.

Q Did you forward this memorandum to Mr. Tamraz?

A I did not forward it to him.

Q Do you know whether Mr. Sullivan is responsible for forwarding this to Mr. Tamraz?

A My only recollection is he requested some of the information. I don't know if it was then forwarded.

Q Do you know why it was suggested that he provide a contribution to the Virginia Democratic Party?

A I recall there being a request that he provide it to the Virginia Legislative Campaign Committee in connection with the '95 election cycle, but I don't recall that specific to the Democratic Party contribution.

Q And was that information communicated to you or the suggestion that Mr. Tamraz ­­ if you could just state again, who was it that suggested to you that Mr. Tamraz might make a contribution to the Virginia Democratic Party?

A My recollection is that direction came from Mr. Fowler.

Q Do you recall whether you had a meeting with Mr. Fowler to discuss where campaign contributions should be directed?

A I don't recall a formal meeting. I recall sort of a meeting in passing.

Q Do you know if Ms. Khare, Carol Khare, was in contact with Mr. Tamraz at any time in 1996?

A I don't know for certain, no.

Q Did you ever discuss Mr. Tamraz with anybody at the DNC except for Mr. Sullivan and Mr. Fowler?

A I discussed with Mr. Pastrick and Marvin Rosen.

Q The meeting that you earlier described between Mr. Fowler, Mr. Tamraz and yourself, do you recall the date of that meeting?

A I don't recall an exact date. I believe it was in July of 1996.

Q Do you recall how long the meeting lasted?

A I believe it was a half­hour to 45 minutes.

Q And what was discussed at that meeting?

A I remember that Mr. Tamraz stated that he was very interested in being supportive of the President and of the party, that he was encouraged by the President's policies. He went on to describe how he wanted to be financially supportive.

Mr. Fowler thanked him for that. Mr. Tamraz went on to discuss and provided a copy of a Newsweek article, I believe he had the magazine with him, which talked about a pipeline construction that his company was undertaking in Russia, and I remember him describing that the project hadn't physically started, but that the steps to get it were well on their way, and that he had many corporate clients who were supporting his effort. He was just informing us of sort of who he was and what his business was.

Q Do you know how many times Mr. Fowler met with Mr. Tamraz?

A I don't.

Q If you could just ­­ the document I provided you earlier, which was provided because I believe it came from a file of some sort, you have indicated that you don't recognize the handwriting on the first page of it, but the second page, the third page and the fourth page have what appear to be a memorandum to Mr. Fowler from Alejandra Castillo. If you could take just a moment to review that memorandum.

Mr. Pierson. For the record, these are pages DNC 3116351 through 6353.

RPTS STALLSWORTH

DCMN MAGMER

BY MR. WILSON:

Q Did you receive a copy of this memorandum?

Mr. Pierson. At any time before ­­

BY MR. WILSON:

Q At ­­ well, I must be clear on this. Did you receive a copy of this memorandum at any time in 1995?

A I don't recall specifically receiving it.

Q Do you recall receiving a copy of this memorandum at any time before November of 1996?

A I don't recall a specific time of receiving it.

Q But do you recall whether you did receive this memorandum?

Mr. Pierson. Before the election?

Mr. Wilson. Before the election.

The Witness. I don't recall a certain time of receiving it, no ­­ or receiving it.

BY MR. WILSON:

Q The third page of this memorandum, in the second paragraph, in the conclusions section, states that, in a conversation held with Ari Swiller yesterday, Mr. Tamraz has expressed his desire to contribute $300,000 to the DNC. Did you speak with Ms. Castillo about your meeting with Mr. Tamraz?

A I recall having discussions with Ms. Castillo about Mr. Tamraz. I don't recall the specific discussions.

Q Do you recall what she asked you?

A I think she was inquiring whether I knew some of the information that has been provided in this document, and I believe it may have been the context of my discussion with Mr. Tamraz.

Q The first paragraph of this conclusion section on the third page of the memorandum indicates that it is clear that Mr. Tamraz has several problems pending before the international business community. Did Ms. Castillo discuss with you any of the specifics of what she knew about Mr. Tamraz?

A I remember either seeing in news articles or hearing from her some of the items that are brought up in this document that refer to business problems or problems pending in the international business community.

Q In the first paragraph of the memorandum, in what is the second sentence, it states, as a potential managing trustee member, Mr. Tamraz' business dealing may have potential, if not definite ­­ if not definite political and ethical implications on the DNC fund­raising operations.

Did you have any discussions with anybody at the DNC prior to November of 1996 about the implications Mr. Tamraz' business dealings might have for the DNC?

A I believe I did, yes.

Q And who did you talk to?

A I believe I talked to Ms. Castillo and possibly ­­ my recollection would be Mr. Sullivan or Mr. Pastrick.

Q And what was discussed when you spoke with Ms. Castillo?

A As I stated earlier, some of the concerns that she highlights in this memo I think are part of that discussion.

Q Now, had she communicated these concerns to you for the first time? You had not heard of these concerns before she spoke to you; is that correct?

A As I recollected ­­ in reflecting, that's correct. I may have seen articles. I don't know the timing ­­ if I saw the articles, we had the discussion, she brought them up with the articles. I don't remember the sequence, but ­­ I didn't have a long­standing prior knowledge, no.

Mr. Pierson. May I have a moment, please?

[Witness conferring with counsel.]

Mr. Pierson. If you would like to add to your answer please.

The Witness. Yes. Mr. Tamraz, during our discussion, mentioned ­­ I'm sorry, during my meeting with Mr. Fowler and Mr. Tamraz, he mentioned sort of in passing that he had a controversial background, which is something that I think came up in discussions following with Ms. Castillo ­­ in the following conversations that I may have had with other DNC folks, that we mentioned that as well.

BY MR. WILSON:

Q Prior to your meeting with ­­ the first meeting with Mr. Tamraz, a meeting that Mr. Fowler attended, did you yourself do or did you request anybody else to do any background research on Mr. Tamraz?

A Not that I recall, no.

Q Did you communicate to anybody the nature of the controversial background that you just mentioned Mr. Tamraz brought to everybody's attention?

A I don't remember him ­­ sorry. Restate the question.

Q My understanding from what you just said was that Mr. Tamraz himself brought up controversial background in your meeting with yourself and Mr. Fowler. Once you learned of that during that meeting, did you bring that to anybody else's attention?

A I don't recall specifically doing that. I may have brought it to the attention of Ms. Castillo as she was preparing this memo. In follow­up, I may have also mentioned it to Mr. Pastrick following our meeting with Mr. Tamraz, that he had mentioned something about this.

Q Did Ms. Castillo tell you or mention to you that she was preparing a memorandum about Mr. Tamraz?

A I don't remember her telling me before preparing it or providing it and saying, I have a memorandum. I don't remember there being a sequence where she first informed me and then provided it.

Q Did you provide her with any information prior to the drafting of this memorandum?

A In my conversation, I may have referenced the article in NewsWeek which Mr. Tamraz had referenced in his discussion with Mr. Fowler and I, and I may have had some discussion with her about the context of our conversation with Mr. Fowler.

Q Had you seen the NewsWeek article?

A Not prior to my meeting with Mr. Tamraz.

Q After you met with Mr. Tamraz, did you see that NewsWeek article that you just discussed?

A He had it in the meeting.

Q Did he provide a copy of the article to you?

A I believe he left a copy, yes.

Q Do you recall whether he left any other material or information?

A Not that I remember, no.

Q Did you have any discussions with Ms. Khare about Mr. Tamraz' background?

A I don't recall any discussions with Ms. Khare, no.

Q Do you know whether Ms. Khare made any inquiry's about Mr. Tamraz' background of anybody else other than yourself?

A Not that I'm aware of, no.

Q Do you know ­­ do you have any knowledge of whether this memorandum was circulated to anybody other than the addressee of the memorandum, other than to Mr. Fowler?

A Not that I recall, no.

Q Do you know if Mr. Tamraz had subsequent discussions with either yourself or Chairman Fowler about his oil pipeline proposal?

A I don't know of his discussions with others. I do not recall any discussion with me about the pipeline following that initial conversation.

Q Do you know if Chairman Fowler ever offered any assistance to Mr. Tamraz in meetings with the Federal officials? And I ask that in terms of did you know that before November of 1996?

A No, I did not.

Q Did Chairman Fowler tell Mr. Tamraz or discuss with Mr. Tamraz contributions to the DNC at the meeting you attended with the ­­ the first meeting you attended with Chairman Fowler and Mr. Tamraz?

A Did Mr. Fowler discuss it?

I think Mr. Fowler thanked him for Mr. Tamraz' willingness to be supportive. I recall that during ­­ the figures and how contributions were made were not discussed at that time.

Q Is it correct to say that, at that point, Mr. Tamraz had not made a contribution to the ­­

A That's correct.

Q ­­ to the DNC?

Did you have ­­ ever have any discussions with anybody at the DNC prior to November 1996 of whether the ­­ anybody in the Clinton administration was being supportive of Mr. Tamraz' oil pipeline project?

A I don't ­­ no, I do not.

Q Did you ever talk to anybody in the administration ­­ and by that I mean any executive branch or agency officials, nonDNC employees ­­ about the Tamraz oil pipeline proposal?

A Not that I recall.

Q Did you ever get any requests from anybody else outside of the DNC prior to November of 1996 about the Tamraz oil pipeline project?

A Not that I recall.

Q Did you ever have any discussions about Mr. Tamraz being banned from a commerce trade board?

A I'm not familiar with that. No.

Q Do you know if Ms. Khare had any discussions with Department of Commerce Employees about Mr. Tamraz?

A Not that I'm familiar with.

Q Just referring back to the meeting between yourself and Mr. Fowler and Mr. Tamraz, what did Mr. Tamraz indicate that he was willing to contribute?

A During my meeting with he and Mr. Fowler, there was ­­ no indication was made.

Q Was there any discussion at that meeting of contributions to entities other than the DNC?

A There was not.

Q Do you know why Mr. Fowler later communicated that some of Mr. Tamraz' contributions would be ­­ it would be appropriate to have them routed to other entities than the DNC?

A My understanding in the case of the Virginia legislative campaign committee ­ or council ­­ it was designated there because their election was ­­ they had a '95, an off­year election. So there was a certain urgency to support their campaign effort.

Q And what about the Louisiana contribution? Was there a reason for that?

A I don't recall.

Q Do you know if anybody other than Ms. Castillo in the format of the memorandum that we've just been discussing brought any concerns about Mr. Tamraz to Mr. Fowler's attention?

A Not that I'm aware of, no.

Q Did anybody communicate concerns about Mr. Tamraz to you directly?

A Other than in conversations with Ms. Castillo I'm not aware ­­ I don't recall anyone else communicating concerns.

Q Once ­­ once Mr. Tamraz did make his contributions, is there any one person that was designated the primary contact between the DNC and Mr. Tamraz?

A Initially, I was his contact. But subsequent to my first few contacts with him, I think he began to work more exclusively with Marvin Rosen.

Q And in light of the concerns that Ms. Castillo outlined in her memorandum to Chairman Fowler, did you think it was appropriate for the DNC to accept contributions from Mr. Tamraz?

Mr. Pierson. Can I just interpose an objection?

Mr. Wilson. Sure.

Mr. Pierson. We've got a temporal disconnect. He was ­­ he can tell you that he saw the Castillo memorandum. So he can't tell you that, in light of what's in the memorandum, he thought anything. But I know he has some substantive testimony to give to you on the subject, so I don't want to interrupt your line of questioning here.

Mr. Wilson. Right.

Mr. Pierson. I just think the two don't connect.

Mr. Wilson. I understand.

BY MR. WILSON:

Q Given your communications with Ms. Castillo about Mr. Tamraz, did you have any concerns about Mr. Tamraz contributing to the DNC?

A I recall having some reservations, yes.

Q Did you communicate those to anybody?

A I believe I communicated them to Ms. Castillo. I may have communicated them to Mr. Sullivan.

Q And did you tell anybody else about your concerns?

A Maybe Mr. Pastrick. But I'm not even sure there. But those would be the people, I think.

Q Did you ever speak with Sheila Heslin or anybody else at the National Security Council about Mr. Tamraz?

A I'm not familiar with her. I don't recall any conversations that I had with people at the National Security Council, no.

Q Prior to 19 ­­ November of 1996, do you recall anybody contacting you about Mr. Tamraz?

A Anyone?

Q And ­­ I'm puposefully being very broad. Anybody from ­­

Mr. Pierson. Outside the DNC?

Mr. Wilson. Yeah. Outside the Democratic National Committee.

The Witness. Outside ­­ I don't recall, outside of the people we've discussed, anyone making inquiries of me of Mr. Tamraz.

BY MR. WILSON:

Q Apart from the ­­ the communications that we've just discussed with Ms. Castillo, did you ever hear anything about Mr. Tamraz seeking political leverage to advance his oil pipeline proposal?

Mr. Pierson. Up to the election?

Mr. Wilson. Prior to November, 1996.

The Witness. No, I don't recall asking for a leverage.

BY MR. WILSON:

Q Were you in contact with Mr. Tamraz after the ­­ after the meeting with Chairman Fowler and Mr. Tamraz and yourself?

A Yeah, immediately following the ­­ that meeting, Mr. Tamraz ­­ as I stated earlier, Mr. Tamraz, Mr. Pastrick and myself had a separate meeting where we discussed contributions more directly.

Q Do you know if Mr. Tamraz attended DNC events at any time after your initial contact with him?

A Yes, I believe he did.

Q Do you know what events he did attend?

A I can't recall the specific events, but I do recall seeing him at events. I don't know which ones exactly.

Q What type of events do you recall seeing him at?

A Fund raisers. Fund­raising galas with dinners.

Q Do you know ­­ did you know, prior to November, 1996, whether Mr. Tamraz met with nonDNC officials or government employees after the time that you first met him and before November of 1996?

A No, I was not aware of it.

Q Did you ever have any discussions with Chairman Fowler about Mr. Tamraz visiting the White House?

A I don't recall specific discussion regarding that, no.

Q Just very generally, do you have any recollection of ­­ of Mr. Fowler discussing Mr. Tamraz and attempts to meet with people in the White House?

A No, I don't have any recollection of that.

Q Were you aware at any time before November, 1996, that the White House did have objections to Mr. Tamraz attending events in the White House?

A No, I was not aware of that.

Q Do you have any knowledge of meetings involving Mr. Tamraz and Mr. Sullivan and Marvin Rosen in October of 1995?

A I'm not aware of those specific ­­ that specific time or meeting.

Q Do you have any knowledge, just in a general sense, of Tamraz meeting with Richard Sullivan and Marvin Rosen?

A As I stated earlier, I was initially his contact at the DNC. But, soon after, his primary contact became Mr. Rosen; and I know that they he met or spoke on the phone on occasion. I don't know the specific times or ­­ or who else was in attendance, but I know that his primary contact became Mr. Rosen.

Q Are you aware of any telephone calls made by Mr. Fowler to employees of the National Security Council?

A Not prior to recent revelations of it, no.

Q Did ­­ did Chairman Fowler ever ask for information about Mr. Tamraz ­­ ask you for information about Mr. Tamraz after that initial meeting that you attended with Mr. Tamraz and Mr. Fowler?

A I don't recall any requests, no.

Q Did Chairman Fowler ever communicate any concerns to you about Mr. Tamraz at any time after the initial meeting that you ­­ that the three of you had?

A Not that I can recall, no.

Q Do you recall any discussions with Mr. Fowler about Mr. Tamraz or that involved Mr. Tamraz after your initial discussion or after your initial meeting?

A As I stated earlier, Mr. Fowler at some point had indicated to me that a ­­ that I make a request of Mr. Tamraz to designate some of his contributions to Virginia legislative campaign. That's a conversation that sticks to mind. Other conversations, I don't recall.

Q Do you recall whether there were any conversations?

A I don't.

Are you finished with this?

Q I think we are. Let me just have a quick review of it.

Do you ­­ do you recall whether you kept a file for Mr. Tamraz among your trustee files?

A I don't ­­ I ­­ I'm sure I did. I don't recall specifically, but he was a trustee, and we had files on all of them. Yes.

Q Do you know Eric Hotung?

A I know who he is.

Q Have you ever met him?

A No, I've not.

Mr. Pierson. Counsel, when you come to a convenient stopping place, can we have several minutes, please?

Mr. Wilson. Let's go off the record.

[Recess.]

Mr. Wilson. If we can go back on the record, please.

BY MR. WILSON:

Q Just one follow­up question on the materials we were discussing about Mr. Tamraz and Exhibit 13. If I could provide again the memorandum from Ms. Castillo to Chairman Fowler, the cc is to yourself and to Carol Khare. Why would Ms. Khare have received this memorandum?

Mr. Pierson. If you know.

Mr. Wilson. To the extent you know.

The Witness. To the extent I know, she was Mr. Fowler's executive assistant and sort of like an alter ego. She received some of the information Mr. Fowler received.

BY MR. WILSON:

Q Do you know whether in Mr. Tamraz' case she did any follow­up investigation about Mr. Tamraz for Chairman Fowler?

A Ms. Khare?

Q Yes.

A Not to my knowledge.

Q Did you ever speak with Mr. Hotung?

A No, I had never done that.

Q Had you ever received any contacts from Pat O'Connor about Mr. Hotung?

A No I have not.

Q Do you know Pat O'Connor?

A I do.

Q And do you know what he does for a living?

A My understanding is he is an attorney and a lobbyist.

Q And how do you know Mr. O'Connor?

A He's been a long­time Democratic fund­raiser and supporter. I've met him through DNC events and his support of the DNC and fund­raising efforts.

Q Has Mr. O'Connor ever had any official discussions with you outside of the social context because he ­­ had you ever worked with Mr. O'Connor in an official capacity?

A I don't believe I have, no.

Q Do you recall whether you helped to arrange any meetings for Mr. Hotung?

A No, I don't recall that.

Q Have you had any interaction at all with Mr. Hotung?

A I have not.

Q Do you know either James or Mochtar Riady?

A I know who they are.

Q Have you ever met either James Riady or Mochtar Riady?

A I have not.

Q Have you ever spoken with either of them?

A I have not.

Q Have you ever been asked to arrange introductions for them to administration officials?

A I have not.

Q Do you recall ever having assisted them in any way?

A No, I do not recall that.

Q Do you know either Arief or Soraya Wiriadinata?

A I do not know them. They at some point became trustees, but I've never met with them or spoken with them.

Q Did you solicit contributions from them?

A Never.

Q Do you know who did?

A My recollection is that John Huang did.

Q Do you recall whether you've ever had requests to do anything for Mr. or Mrs. Wiriadinata?

A I don't recall that at all.

Q Do you know Yogesh Gandhi?

A Only what I've read. I've never met him, and I've never been involved with him.

Q Have you ever been asked to assist him in any way?

A No, I've not.

Mr. Wilson. I've given the witness a document that's marked Exhibit AS­14. It is a letter to President Clinton from an individual named Richard Agins. It does not have Mr. Swiller's name on it anywhere. If you could take just a moment to review this.

[Swiller Deposition Exhibit No. AS­14

was marked for identification.]

Mr. Pierson. For the record, it is dated August 14, 1996; and it bears number EOP 05587. There may be another number, but that's all that appears.

BY MR. WILSON:

Q This is a letter from an attorney in New York to President Clinton, and it discusses a purported arrangement between Chairman Fowler and an organization wherein Chairman Fowler was purportedly promised two videotaped addresses in exchange for a campaign contribution. Do you have any familiarity with the Hermes Enterprises, Limited, organization?

A I do not.

Q Have you ever heard or seen the name Richard Agins, A­G­I­N­S?

A I have not.

Q Do you have any familiarity with a dispute involving a Greek­American group and either the President or the DNC?

A No.

Q Do you know an individual named Ramesh Kapur?

A Yes I do.

Q Have you met Mr. Kapur?

A Yes, I have.

Q Where did you meet Mr. Kapur?

A I don't know the first time, but he was a trustee who I saw often at events. He visited the DNC a few times where I would see him. He also attended events around the country where I saw him.

Mr. Wilson. I have provided the witness with a document which is marked Exhibit AS­15. It's a fax cover sheet dated 7/18/95, marked with the Bates number DNC 3235705.

[Swiller Deposition Exhibit No. AS­15

was marked for identification.]

Mr. Wilson. It ­­ the fax transmission ­­

Mr. Pierson. 5707.

Mr. Wilson. Oh, pardon. Correct. Pardon.

Mr. Wilson. The fax transmission indicates that there are five pages included with this sheet, and it's my understanding that all we have received is a single page of a fax transmission cover. If you could take just a moment to look at that.

BY MR. WILSON:

Q The fax cover sheet indicates that there are two topics of discussion with Mr. Roger Johnson. Do you recall discussing with Mr. Kapur the contents of this fax cover sheet?

A No, I do not.

Q Do you recall ­­ do you know whether you ever approached Roger Johnson about arranging a meeting between himself and Mr. Kapur?

A I do not recall that at all.

Q Did Mr. Kapur discuss with you getting more Indian­Americans into high­level positions at the GSA?

A Not that I recall, no.

Q The second topic mentioned in this fax cover sheet is about preventing Indian­American businesses from being pigeonholed into smaller contracts when they are capable of handling larger contracts. Did Mr. Kapur have any discussions with you about this subject?

A No. Not that I recall, no.

Q Do you recall receiving this fax transmission?

A I don't recall.

Q Do you have any recollection of receiving a resume? This fax cover sheet indicates that a copy of a resume is attached to the fax. Do you recall receiving a resume from Mr. Kapur?

A I don't.

Q Did ­­

Mr. Pierson. Excuse me just a minute.

BY MR. WILSON:

Q Did you have any discussions with Mr. Kapur about meetings that he had with administration officials?

A No, I don't recall it.

Q Do you recall ever assisting Mr. Kapur in setting up a meeting with any Clinton administration employee?

A No, I don't recall it.

Q Do you recall receiving any requests from Mr. Kapur for assistance on any matter?

A Mr. Kapur would request special preferential seating at events we would do around the country. He would request ­­ he was another person who requested photos and multiple copies of photos. That was probably the extent of the requests that I dealt with.

Q Do you recall whether you helped him with those requests?

A If those sort of requests ­­ I probably would have helped, maybe not with the seat ­­ giving him preferential seating, but I probably would have heard him out.

Q Do you recognize the handwriting on the document in front of you?

A I believe I do, yes.

Q And there is a note at the middle, in the middle on the right­hand side of the document; and I believe it says Ramesh requested trustee as well. Do you recognize that handwriting?

A No. I ­­ if they're the same handwriting, this one is more familiar to me.

Q And do you know whose handwriting is on the bottom right­hand section of the fax cover sheet?

A It looks to me like the handwriting of Anne Braziel.

Q Do you know whether Ms. Braziel ever scheduled meetings with administer ­­ between Mr. Kapur and any Clinton administration officials?

A Not that I can recall, no.

Q Do you know an individual named Mansoor Ijaz? That's I­J­A­Z?

A Yes, sir, I know him.

Mr. Pierson. Ijaz.

Mr. Wilson. I was going to help with the pronunciation of his name because I'm always sensitive to that.

BY MR. WILSON:

Q Have you met with Mr. Ijaz?

A Yes, sir, I have.

Q Where did you first meet Mr. Ijaz?

A I believe I first met him with at a joint DNC­DCCC ­­ D triple C ­­ event in Washington.

Q And have you met with him on subsequent occasions?

A Yes, I have.

Q Where have you met him?

A I met with him in my office at the DNC. I met with him on occasion when I was working in New York in his office in New York, and he hosted a fund­raiser at his home with the Vice President. So I met with him at his home prior to the event.

Q Do you know if Mr. Ijaz ever met with Nancy Soderberg?

A Yes, he did. I believe he did.

Q Did you know that prior to November of 1996?

A Yes, I did.

Q Did you assist Mr. Ijaz in meeting with Ms. Soderberg?

A Yes, I did.

Q Did he request that you provide assistance in setting up a meeting?

A Yes, he did.

Q Why did he ask you to set up the meeting with Ms. Soderberg?

A Mr. Ijaz believed that he had some concerns that ­­ about nuclear technology development in Pakistan that he thought should be brought to someone's attention. He was working international affairs there.

Q What is Mr. Ijaz's business?

A My understanding is that he directs a large fund. He's a fund manager. He raises large sums of capital and invests it.

Q Do you know if Mr. Ijaz has any business and trusts in Pakistan?

A Not that I'm aware of, no.

Q Did Mr. Ijaz ever discuss South Africa with you?

A I know that he had business trips there. That was the extent of the discussion.

Q Do you know if he ever traveled to South Africa with a Commerce Department delegation?

A I don't recall that.

Q Did Mr. Ijaz ever request your assistance in obtaining a space on any Commerce Department travel events?

A No, he did not.

Q Do you know whether Mr. Ijaz ever attended ­­ well, do you know whether he attended a Washington lunch with the Vice President and South African Vice President Mbeki?

A I believe he did attend that event, yes.

Q Did he discuss this event with you?

A I believe so, yes.

Q Did he ask for your assistance in obtaining an invitation to this lunch?

A Yes, he did.

Q Did you help him with this request?

A I believe I did, yes.

Q Who did you contact on his behalf, if anybody?

A I believe I contacted staff. I don't remember the person ­­ well, staff in the Vice President's office.

Q Do you know whether you were ­­ provided any indication of Mr. Ijaz's request to any of your DNC colleagues?

A I may have mentioned it to Mr. Sullivan.

Q Did Mr. Ijaz speak with you about the Vice­Presidential lunch after the event?

A I believe he did speak with me, yes.

Q And what did he tell you?

A He was encouraged, thought it was a historic moment and was happy that he had the opportunity to be there.

Q Do you know if Mr. Ijaz ever met with Chief of Staff Leon Panetta?

A Not that I'm aware of.

Q Do you know an individual named George Chu, C­H­U?

A I know he was a trustee. I know ­­ I do not know him.

Q Have you ever spoken with him?

A I have not.

Q Do you ­­ do you know who, in the DNC, was responsible for contacting Mr. Chu initially?

A My recollection ­­ Mr. Chu, I think, lives in south San Francisco; and his contact was our fund­raiser for that area, a gentleman named Mark Thomann.

Q Have you had any correspondence with Mr. Chu?

A Correspondence similar that I would have with general correspondence to all trustees.

Q Did Mr. Chu ever make a request of you or your office?

A Not that I'm aware of, no. Not that I recall.

Q Do you know an individual named George Gruggiero?

A You can see that ­­ I believe you may be referring to a gentleman named Joseph Ruggiero. If it's an individual at the IMPAC Group.

Q It's an individual at the IMPAC, yes.

A My contact there was a man named Joseph Ruggiero.

Q When did you believe you first met him?

A I believe I first met Mr. Ruggiero during the '93 inaugural.

Q And did you have subsequent contacts with Mr. Ruggiero?

A Yes, I did.

Mr. Wilson. I would like to provide the witness with a document. It's marked Exhibit AS­16 and indicates very clearly that it's Joe Ruggiero and certainly not George. The date of the document is April 3, 1996. It's Bates number DNC 3063532.

Mr. Pierson. Through 34.

Mr. Wilson. And subsequent pages, correct, through 34.

[Swiller Deposition Exhibit No. AS­16

was marked for identification.]

Mr. Wilson. The first of the three pages that I've provided to you ­­ actually, I'll give you longer to look at it.

The Witness. Okay.

BY MR. WILSON:

Q The first of the three pages I've given to you indicates that when you met with Mr. Ruggiero the previous year, which would have been 1995, Mr. Ruggiero had complained about his treatment from the DNC during the previous 2 years. Do you have ­­ do you know what this refers to?

A As I recall, Mr. Ruggiero was very insistent that the ­­ that his participation with the RNC, he received much greater access to President Bush and to administration officials, to Senators, to Members of Congress than he did with his contributions with the DNC.

I remember him indicating that he was a member for what was called Team 100, which I believe was a top­level RNC contributor group, and that through his support of it had opportunities to have photos in the Oval Office with the President, was often included in small meetings with the administration officials, and that he felt that his support of the DNC, he did not receive the same response or access; and it was very discouraging for him.

Q Did you discuss Mr. Ruggiero's complaints with Chairman Fowler?

A I believe I had conversations that sort of indicated things similar to these lines in the document.

Q The third page, the three documents I ­­ the three pages I provided to you is what appears to be a letter dated March 8, 1996, from Chairman Fowler to Ambassador Shearer in Finland?

A Uh­huh.

Q Were you aware at the time that Chairman Fowler wrote to Ambassador Shearer?

A I was aware that a request was made for Mr. Fowler to write such a letter. I was not aware that a letter was sent or that it was ever completed.

Q Do you ­­ do you have any knowledge of that which is referred to in this letter, which is a libel case involving the company, Integrated Control Systems, Incorporated?

A I recall there being a concern that his company was falsely being accused in Finland. But I don't recall the greater details of it.

Q So it's your recollection that this involved a legal lawsuit in Finland?

A That's my recollection, yeah.

Q Do you recall whether you had any subsequent conversations with Mr. Ruggiero or the other individual referred to in this letter, Mr. Erwin, or any other members of IMPAC Group about the libel case in Finland?

A No, I don't recall that.

Q Did you make any contacts to Ambassador Shearer in Finland?

A No, I did not.

Q Do you know whether anybody else in the DNC made contact with Ambassador Shearer?

A No. I don't recall that.

Q One ­­ just a question, a general question, about this particular letter. It is unsigned. Was it ­­ was it a practice of ­­ to the extent you have any knowledge at all, was it a practice of the DNC to retain unsigned correspondence in people's personal files?

A It wasn't a practice.

Q It wasn't a practice.

Mr. Pierson. Counsel, I do not want the assumption to remain in the record that this came from a file. It could well have come off a database.

Mr. Wilson. It could, and I was actually going to follow up and ask that. It's entirely possible that this is printed off of a computer database.

BY MR. WILSON:

Q And I'm just trying to get any elucidation on whether ­­ in your case, I asked you earlier whether you kept signed correspondence; and you provided the answer for that. Do you know whether database files were purged in your computer system on a regular basis or whether they were retained just as a default mechanism in the computer system?

Mr. Lu. Are you asking him whether he purged them or whether the system ­­

Mr. Wilson. No, no. Whether they were purged as a default mechanism of the computer system. Not whether Mr. Swiller had any part in doing any purging of any memorandum.

Mr. Pierson. Do you understand that the question is asking whether it was done as part of a default mechanism? Not whether somebody came in and sat down and did it but whether the system had a purging mechanism within it?

The Witness. Not that I'm aware of.

BY MR. WILSON:

Q Do you have any knowledge of a meeting between Ambassador ­­ between Chairman Fowler, John Huang and Ambassador March Fong Eu in April of 1996?

A No, I don't.

Q Did you ever receive any requests from Ambassador March Fong Eu?

A No, I did not.

Q Did you have any contacts with Ambassador March Fong Eu?

A I met her in 1992 during the campaign; but, following, I don't think I ever saw or spoke to her again following the '93 Inaugural.

Q Did you ever have any contacts with an individual named David Lai, L­A­I?

A No.

Q Do you know Joe Giroir?

A I know who he is.

Mr. Pierson. Have you met him?

The Witness. I believe I have met him.

BY MR. WILSON:

Q Did Mr. Giroir ever contact you at the DNC?

A Never.

Q Have you ever met either Nora or Gene Lum?

A I have not.

Q Have you ever had any contacts with Nora or Gene Lum?

A I have not.

Q Are you ­­

A Let me correct ­­ may I?

Q Certainly.

A I may have ­­ I knew their names because they had at some point before my return to the DNC ­­ being trustees of the party, as I did with a lot of people who had stopped contributing, I frequently sent them requests to renew their contributions to the DNC. So I may ­­ at some point, they would have been included in that correspondence. But I had no conversations with them, no follow­up conversations, and never spoke with them directly.

Q Do you know an individual named Al Wong, W­O­N­G?

A I do not.

Q Do you know an individual named Ray McClendon? That's M­C, capital C, L­E­N­D­O­N?

A The name is familiar. I believe he's a member of a firm that was supportive of our efforts, but I don't know him.

Q Do you recall any specific contacts between yourself and Mr. McClendon?

A No, I do not.

Q Do you know James Staffors, who is with the company, American Home Products?

A I don't know him. I know that they were trustee­level contributors. I don't recall ever meeting him or ever having any conversations with him.

Q Do you recall any requests that came from either Mr. Staffors or any other employee of American Home Products of you or your office?

A No, I do not.

Q Have you ever met James Belcher?

A I have never met him.

Q Mr. Belcher is with a number of companies. One is called Peat Rubber Company. Another is called N. R. Latex. Do you know of any contacts between Mr. Belcher and either yourself or your office?

A He became a trustee level contributor while I was at the DNC, so I assumed he received the similar correspondence that other trustees received after he became a trustee.

Q Did either Mr. Belcher or any other member of his ­­ any of his firms contact you with any manner of requests in either 1995 or 1996?

A No.

RPTS COCHRAN

DCMN BURRELL

Let me correct that. A gentleman named Chris Martin, I was introduced to by an attorney of his, and he requested of me information about the trustee program, which I discussed with him, with Mr. Martin.

Q Did Mr. Martin contact you?

A A trustee in Connecticut introduced us. She introduced me to Mr. Martin under the pretense that he was interested or had a client that was interested in becoming a DNC supporter.

Q Where were you introduced to Mr. Martin?

A At the home of Sandra Murphey and Bill Bryant in Connecticut.

Q What was the circumstance of this meeting?

A They were hosting a fund­raiser for Senator Kennedy. They invited me to come so that ­­ I had known Mrs. Murphey for a few years and her husband. She was ­­ they were active contributors as well as fund­raisers. They invited me there because they thought that Mr. Martin had a client who would be interested in participating as a trustee and being that I was their trustee liaison, they thought it would be proper to make that introduction.

Q Did Mr. Belcher or one of his companies ultimately become a trustee participant?

A Yes.

Q Did you receive any communications about any of Mr. Belcher's enterprises subsequent to Mr. Belcher becoming a trustee participant?

A Not that I recall specifically, no.

Q Did you receive any requests regarding Mr. Belcher from any Congressional staff?

A Can you restate the question?

Q Did you have any contacts regarding Mr. Belcher or Mr. Belcher's enterprises with Congressional staff?

A Following the election, I was contacted by members of Senator Dodd's staff, because there had been some concerns raised that Senator Dodd was involved in soliciting contributions from Mr. Belcher, and they were asking me sort of what I knew about Mr. Belcher and the history. That was the only Congressional contacts I think I had regarding that.

Q What did you tell them?

A As I recall, I had this first introduction with Mr. Martin, followed up with a phone call, maybe more than one phone call, which were not returned. And subsequently, not through any contacts of mine, Mr. Belcher became a trustee, and I never spoke to Mr. Martin or Mr. Belcher again.

Q Did you make any telephone calls or write any letters or make any communications whatsoever on any matter that pertained to any of Mr. Belcher's enterprises?

A No, not that I recall.

Q Do you know who solicited the contributions from Mr. Belcher?

A My recollection is that Mr. Huang did.

Q And do you know anything about Mr. Huang's solicitation of this contribution?

A No.

Q Do you know whether Mr. Huang traveled to Connecticut to speak with Mr. Belcher?

A I did not know it at the time, but as I just stated, I had some conversations about sort of how Mr. Belcher became involved. In that I found out Mr. Huang made that travel to Connecticut to meet with Mr. Belcher.

Q Did you have discussions with Mr. Huang about the solicitation of a contribution from Mr. Belcher?

A The only conversation I can recall is subsequent to an initial contribution from Mr. Belcher, I remember just acknowledging to Mr. Huang that I had met and associated with Mr. Belcher and Mr. Martin, and that that was the extent of my contact, serving knowledge that I guess I was encouraged that he finally made a contribution.

Q Did anybody ­­ you mentioned one Congressional contact. Prior to your leaving the DNC in March of 1997, had anybody else contacted you about Mr. Belcher or Mr. Belcher's companies?

A No, not that I recall. No.

Q Have you heard of the Ellicott Machine Corporation?

A That is not familiar to me, no.

Q Or the principal of the Ellicott Machine Corporation, the CEO is a person named Peter Bowe, B­O­W­E. Do you know Mr. Bowe?

A No, I don't.

Q Do you know Mark Nichols?

A Yes, I do.

Q And when have you met Mr. Nichols?

A I have.

Q Where did you first meet Mr. Nichols?

A At a DNC gala, I believe.

Q Do you remember when that was?

A I don't.

Q Have you ever met with Mr. Nichols at the DNC?

A No, I have not.

Q Have you ever met with Mr. Nichols outside of social circumstances such as the DNC gala or fund­raising event?

A I have not.

Q Do you recall ever having helped Mr. Nichols set up meetings with any Clinton Administration employees?

A No, I do not.

Q Have you had any contacts with Mr. Nichols outside of the social meeting you described at the very beginning of this line of questions?

A I happened to have run into him at a DSCC event recently while I was in California, where it was a social visit. But I barely ­­ I don't recall it.

Q Did you have any discussion with him at that time?

A Yes, I did.

Q And what did you discuss?

A He ­­ actually I recall now he requested of me if I could assist him in getting a photo of himself from an event with the President that took place in Los Angeles that I had actually worked on, which would be another event where I saw him, a fund­raiser in the fall of '96, and he had remembered that ­­ he remembered that he hadn't received a photo, that I was at the event, and he asked if I could assist in getting him a photo.

Q Did you attend any meetings with Mr. Nichols and Chairman Fowler?

A Not that I recall, no.

Q Are you aware of meetings between Mr. Nichols and Mr. Fowler?

A I can recall that he, Mr. Nichols, came to the DNC, but who he met with, I don't recall if it was Mr. Fowler or not.

Q Earlier I asked you if you knew Mr. Patrick O'Connor, and you indicated that you did. Did Mr. O'Connor ever have any conversations with you about tribal, Indian tribal gaming concerns in Wisconsin and Minnesota?

A He did not.

Q Did you ever have any discussions with Mr. O'Connor about any Indian tribal concerns?

A No.

Q Did Mr. O'Connor ever ask for your assistance on any matter?

A No, he did not.

Q Prior to November of 1996, were you aware of any litigation involving a Chippewa Indian tribe in Wisconsin and Minnesota?

A I was not.

Q Were you aware, and again prior to November of 1996, that Chairman Fowler had been threatened with a subpoena and a lawsuit involving Indian tribal issues in Wisconsin and Minnesota?

A No, I was not aware of that.

Q Was there anybody at the DNC who was the principal contact between the DNC and Native American campaign contributors?

A No, not that I recall.

Q Do you remember any DNC fund­raisers being in contact with Native American fund­raisers, or Native American contributors?

A I had some contact with some, and I don't ­­ I think other staff fund­raisers in the field did, yes.

Q Did any Native American tribal representatives become trustees or managing trustees?

A Yes.

Q Do you recall who they were?

A Well, I think Mr. Nichols or his tribe contributed. Skip Hayward, who represented the Mashantucket Pequot tribe. The Sioux, the Saint Sioux tribe in Minnesota. I don't recall at this time other tribes, but there may have been a few others that contributed at the trustee level.

Q Did you ever receive any requests from any of the individuals that you have just mentioned?

Mr. Pierson. Of any kind?

BY MR. WILSON:

Q Of any kind.

A Yes. Mr. Hayward had a representative, or his tribe had a representative named Chris McNeil in Washington, who I remember requested a meeting with chairman ­­ through me with Chairman Wilhelm, and I can remember I attended, and with Chairman Fowler.

Q Do you remember what the meeting was about?

A The first meeting with Wilhelm?

Q Yes.

A I remember they described the success of their casino, how they had ­­ I remember what sticks out in my mind is that they referenced a number of like $140 million they had written to the State of Connecticut because they are a tribe. I remember their concern that they felt that they did not have a contact in the White House who was well versed on Indian, Native American, Indian concerns and issues.

Q And referring to the second meeting that you mentioned, what was discussed at that meeting?

A I remember there being some follow­up to the original meeting, feeling that they had been supporters, but that these concerns that they laid out earlier had still not been addressed, that there were not people who understood their concerns.

Q Did you ever have any contacts with Tom Collier, either when he was Secretary Abbott's chief of staff or when he was in private practice in a law firm in Washington?

A The name is familiar, but I don't recall contacts with him.

Q Have you ever had any contacts with a woman named Gretchen Lerach, L­E­R­A­C­H?

A She was an employee at the DNC part of the time that I was at the DNC, yes.

Q Who did Ms. Lerach work for?

A My recollection is that she served as an assistant to the chief of staff, B.J. Thornberry, when she was employed at the DNC.

Q Do you know whether she was still employed at the DNC when you left in March of 1997?

A No, I believe she left previous to my departure.

Q Did you have any knowledge prior to November of 1996 that Indian tribes were considering forming a PAC to advance tribal issues?

A No, not that I recall.

Q Do you know an individual named Richard B­E­R­T­S­C­H, Bertsch?

A Yes, I do.

Q Who is Mr. Bertsch?

A He was someone who was involved in politics and some fund­raising in Los Angeles.

Q Have you met him personally?

A Yes, I have.

Q When did you first meet Mr. Bertsch?

A I believe I recall him screaming at me at a fund­raising gala at the Washington Hilton, and I think that gala was in the spring of '94. That was my first introduction.

Q And what facilitated the manner of introduction?

A I believe he didn't like his seating and felt I was responsible or I was the closest staff person to him at the time.

Q Did you ever ­­ have you ever solicited contributions from Mr. Bertsch?

A No, not that I recall. No.

Q Have you ever either yourself or have any of your staff conducted background research on Mr. Bertsch?

A No, not that I can recall.

Q Did Mr. Bertsch ever request that you provide assistance in setting up a meeting between himself and any member of the Clinton Administration?

A No, not that I can recall.

Q Do you know Richard Park?

A Yes, I do.

Q When did you first meet Mr. Park?

A I believe he was accompanying Mr. Bertsch at that first fund­raiser that I described earlier.

Q Have you ever solicited contributions from Mr. Park?

A Yes, I have.

Q Have you ever conducted any background research or any of your staff members conducted background research on Mr. Park?

A No, not that I can recall.

Q Has Mr. Park ever contacted you to request your assistance?

A When I was at the DNC?

Q When you were at the DNC, right.

A No, not that I can recall.

Q Do you recall ever helping to arrange meetings for Mr. Park with any Clinton Administration officials?

A No, I don't.

Q Are you aware that the President attended a series of coffees held at the White House during 1995 and 1996?

A Yes, I am.

Q Do you know whether the coffees were a part of the DNC's major donor program?

A No, they were not.

Q They were not. Did you ever send out any correspondence or information to any of the managing trustees or trustees about presidential coffees?

A We had ­­ regarding coffees? No, not that I recall.

Q Did you ever have any contacts with any of the trustees or managing trustees about presidential coffees?

A Yes.

Q And what were the circumstances of those contacts?

A As I stated earlier, the President attended a number of coffees. From time to time, I had the opportunity to include long­standing supporters or people that I thought would be potential supporters in those coffees. So I would invite them to attend a certain coffee.

Q And mechanically speaking, how would you go about inviting the individual?

A Over the phone, through a phone conversation.

Q Would you follow up that telephone conversation with a letter?

A We would sometimes follow up with a fax explaining where to enter the White House and also requesting them to fax back social and date of birth information for them to be waved into the White House.

Q Did you discuss your intention to contact people about coffees in advance of your contacting them with anybody else at the DNC?

A Yes.

Q Who would you discuss those people with?

A Frequently with Mr. Rosen, Mr. Sullivan, Ms. Braziel. Those are probably the majority of the contacts.

Q Did you ever provide anybody else in the DNC with a list of suggested attendees for coffees?

A Others than I mentioned?

Q Well, actually, no, I am including those people. Did you provide them with a list ­­

A Of prospective invitees?

Q Exactly.

A Yes. I would provide on occasion a list to Mr. Rosen or Mr. Sullivan about some people that I would want to include.

Q And this would be in the form of a written memorandum?

A Yes.

Q Did you keep copies of such memoranda in your files?

A No, I don't think I kept printed copies. As I talked about earlier, they were saved automatically on the computer.

Q Do you recall whether your suggestions were generally accepted?

A I think generally they were, yes.

Q Did you attend any of the White House coffees?

A Yes, I did.

Q Do you recall the occasions that you attended coffees?

A I believe I attended one coffee that was attended by the President and Vice President in August of 1995.

Mr. Pierson. You are talking about White House coffees now, right?

Mr. Wilson. Yes.

BY MR. WILSON:

Q And do you recall any of the other attendees at that coffee?

A Mr. Fowler was there. Truman Arnold, who at the time was the finance chairman, was there. I remember Gail Zappa was in attendance, Carol Penskey, Bill Doctor. I believe Rich Keating. Those are the names I remember. There would be I think about a dozen people all together.

Q When you compiled lists of suggestions for coffee attendees, did you have any criteria that you went by to assist you in putting a name on the prospective list?

A I tended to put people on who had been long­standing supporters. I viewed it as quite an awesome event to go to, so I would allow people who had been with the DNC and trustees for a long period of time. Those were the names I tended ­­ my personal criteria for putting them on the list.

Q Did you ever suggest to any individuals that were ultimately invited, and that you had suggested, that they should make a campaign contribution in association with attending the coffee?

A No, I did not.

Q Do you know whether the individuals that you suggested as attendees of the coffees ever received formal invitations from either the DNC or the White House to attend the coffee?

A My recollection is they did not receive formal invitations.

Q I provide for the witness a document marked Exhibit AS­17, which is marked EOP 035478, dated September 28, 1995, and it appears to be a list from a computer database that is not addressed to anybody in particular.

A I don't think it is a list.

Q I mean it provides fields, entry of data, for an addressee. It is not an actual letter that went out to anyone.

[Swiller Deposition Exhibit No. AS­17

was marked for identification.]

BY MR. WILSON:

Q I show you this to ask you if you have seen letters like this that have gone out to coffee invitees?

A Not like this, no. As I stated earlier, the letters we would send were in the form of a memorandum indicating where they should enter. I don't recall sending a formal letter like this.

Q Was there anybody at the DNC that was responsible for issuing the invitations or collecting information from the individual invitees?

A At the DNC?

Q Yes.

A It tended to be myself and Ann Braziel.

Q Did you have any ­­ do you have any knowledge that any individuals at the DNC were linking attendance at a coffee with a contribution of any sort?

A No, I don't.

Q I provide the witness with an exhibit marked AS­18.

[Swiller Deposition Exhibit No. AS­18

was marked for identification.]

BY MR. WILSON:

Q This is premarked with a Bates number DNC 3098456. If you would take just a moment to look at that. This appears to be a call sheet. It is not specifically addressed to an individual. It is prepared by Ann Braziel.

Do you recall call sheets of this nature being prepared?

A Yes, I do.

Q Did you discuss with Mr. Braziel ­­ with Ms. Braziel call sheets of this nature?

A Yes, I did.

Q And did you discuss with her language that is set out at the bottom, the reasons for call. Here it indicates that an individual is interested in participating in convention but is not sure about membership. Ask them to begin renewal of his trustee membership at 25 K and attend the coffee with the President on, and three dates are listed.

Were you aware of any situations where when calls were made, attendance at coffee was linked with renewal of trustee membership?

A I don't have knowledge of that.

Q Did you ever discuss with Chairman Fowler the relationship between membership or being included in the trustee program and attending coffees?

A He knew that in my role I included trustees in those coffees, so the participation of trustees was sort of a natural thing for us to discuss, because they were the donors I worked with.

Q You mentioned before that you tended to include long­standing trustees as possible invitees to coffees. How would you determine what would qualify as a long­standing trustee contributor to be included in your list of invitations?

A Their length of time for when they contributed. If they had been a contributor for two years, a year. People that got involved more close to the date of a coffee, I would move them sort of towards a later date. People who had been continual contributors, renewing every year, were my first priority.

Q And did you have a cutoff in your own mind as to years of participation for inclusion in the list of potential attendees that you submitted?

A No.

Q Did you ever receive information, financial information, that projected income for coffees that the President attended?

A No, I did not.

Q Did you ever receive any spreadsheets or financial data that listed coffees?

A Not that I recall, no.

Q Do you have any recollection of receiving any types of financial data or spreadsheets, apart from that which we have already discussed, which were the lists of trustees that could be generated at your request?

A No.

Q No.

A Not that I recall, no.

Q Did you ever have any discussions with your colleagues about financial projections for coffees or indications of money received from coffees? And I refer exclusively to before November of 1996.

A No, not that I recall.

Q Are you aware of whether the Vice President hosted coffees for DNC supporters?

A Yes, he did.

Q Did you ever submit any lists of suggested attendees for those coffees?

A I did.

Q And what criteria did you use to determine who you would put on the list?

A Similar criteria. I tended to defer to, in the case of coffees with the Vice President, contributions that were not made by the individual, but if there was like a Washington representative of a company that had been a long­standing contributor, that is where I tended to include them on the list.

Q Have you ever heard of the term of art "servicing" used in conjunction with either presidential or vice presidential coffees? And, if so, do you know what it means?

A I have heard the term "servicing."

Mr. Pierson. Have you heard it applied though to coffees?

The Witness. Yes.

BY MR. WILSON:

Q And do you have an understanding of what the term "servicing" means?

Mr. Pierson. As applied to coffees?

BY MR. WILSON:

Q As applied to coffees.

A It would mean an opportunity to include donors at an event where the President would be attending and it would not be a fund­raiser.

Q Have you ever seen any lists of coffees where the term "servicing" is applied to one of the presidential or vice presidential coffees?

A I don't recall such a list.

Q Do you recall ever having discussions with any of your colleagues as to whether either a presidential or vice­presidential coffee would be designated as a servicing event?

A No.

Q There was a coffee on May 13, 1996, that included a number of prominent bankers. Did you submit any suggestions or names for that particular coffee?

A I did not.

Mr. Pierson. Counsel, it is now about 4 o'clock. I would like to ask on the record counsel for the Minority whether they will have any examination based on how the testimony is going so far?

Mr. Lu. I think we will, yes.

Mr. Pierson. Can you give me an estimate of how long?

Mr. Lu. At this point, 15 to 20 minutes maybe, possibly a little bit more, a little bit less.

Mr. Pierson. Okay. I haven't talked to Mr. Swiller about how he is feeling, but I am getting weary. I am just writing notes. What I would like to do is take about a 2 or 3­minute break and go until 5 o'clock, and whatever line of questioning you have at that time we would be happy to let you finish, and let the Minority do some questioning. Unless it opens some area that is legitimate for you to pursue, I would like to end.

Mr. Wilson. I am in agreement to continue on after a short break. I hope I can wrap up within the next hour. I can't make any representations to that.

Mr. Pierson. Fair enough.

[Brief recess.]

BY MR. WILSON:

Q Back on the record, please.

Did you ever have any interaction with Harold Ickes?

A No, I did not.

Q Did you ever place any calls or make any contacts with Mr. Ickes' office?

A Yes, I did.

Q And what were the circumstances?

A I believe I spoke with an assistant to him, John Sutton. I think it was regarding a tour request that he was going to do for some contributors, supporters.

Q That Mr. Sutton was going to ­­

A Yes.

Q ­­ Organize for contributors? Did you ever ­­

Mr. Pierson. You have to speak audibly.

BY MR. WILSON:

Q Did you ever have any contacts with Janice Enright?

A Socially, but not that I recall in her office, work.

Q Did you make any requests of her?

A No, not that I recall.

Q Do you recall whether she made any requests of you?

A No, I do not recall any.

Q Did you ever prepare call sheets for the President, vice president, First Lady or Vice President's wife?

A I believe I prepared call sheets for the President and Vice President, yes.

Q And ­­

A I did.

Q And how did you determine who would be put on call sheets?

A In discussions with Mr. Sullivan and Mr. Rosen.

Q Did you keep track of the results of what happened after call sheets were sent out?

A Yes, I did.

Q How did you do that?

A We had a binder in the office that had copies of call sheets, and at the front of it was a spreadsheet that indicated if a call was made and what the response was.

Q And was the binder divided into sections depending on President and Vice President, First Lady, or who the person to make the call was?

A Since there were only calls to my knowledge made by the Vice President, it was all calls referring to him.

Q And who generated the spreadsheet that you refer to as being at the front of the binder?

A Ms. Braziel.

Q When you provided call sheets through the Vice President, did you provide any additional instructions or materials in addition to the one­page call sheet?

A Not that I recall, no.

Q I provide for Mr. Swiller a document marked Exhibit AS­19, which is marked as a DNC call sheet for Vice President Gore.

[Swiller Deposition Exhibit No. AS­19

was marked for identification.]

BY MR. WILSON:

Q It has been premarked with the Bates number EOP 049239. It is dated December 1, 1995.

Do you recognize the handwriting at the bottom of the page?

A It looks like it could be the handwriting of Anne Braziel.

Q And if you could, please tell me how the call sheets were treated once they were sent out? Did you request the calls be made by a certain time?

A No, I did not.

Q How would information as to whether the calls had been made or not made be transmitted back to your office?

A It generally tended that a gentleman named Peter Knight would assist in that. He would provide information if calls were made or not.

Q Did you ever discuss with Peter Knight the call sheets and fund­raising efforts made pursuant to the call sheets?

A Yes, I did.

Q What did you discuss?

A In regards to the call sheets?

Q Yes.

A He would inform me if a call was made, if the Vice President connected with the individual who the outreach was made to, what the result of that call was, if it was favorable or not favorable.

Q And do you recall whether he contacted you exclusively, or did he sometimes contact Ms. Braziel?

A I think he sometimes contacted Mr. Sullivan, but I think he generally contacted myself and talked to me.

Q This particular call sheet lists as a reason for the call to ask an individual to contribute an additional $50,000 to the DNC Media Fund.

What was the Media Fund?

A It was a similar internal campaign line of funds we were trying to raise. I don't think there was a separate account for it, and I think it was just internally attracting that we were doing.

Q Did you receive copies of separate accounting for funds that had been raised in the Media Fund?

A Not that I recall, no.

Q Did you ever suggest to any individuals that they make contributions to not­for­profit organizations?

A If individuals were interested in organizations that were not­for­profit, there were times when I would offer them names of such organizations.

Q Did you keep a list of names of organizations that were not for profits that you suggested people to contribute to?

A I did not.

Q Did you have a memoranda that you could provide for people with names and addresses?

A Not that I recall, no.

Q When you made suggestions to individuals about a particular not for profit to which they might contribute, did you verbally tell them what the organization was and other information about the organization?

A That is correct.

Q Did you ever keep any records of whether people you discussed not­for­profit contributions with actually did contribute to the not­for­profit group?

A I don't recall a separate recording for that, no.

Q Do you recall whether there was an accounting of any sort within the DNC that kept track of contributions made to not­for­profit organizations?

A Not that I am aware of.

Q Did you ever see any spreadsheets that listed not­for­profit contributions?

A No, I did not.

Q Did you keep any information in the trustee files about whether individuals made contributions to not­for­profit organizations?

A I may have, but I don't recall any specific.

Q You suggested earlier you would provide the names of organizations to which contributions could be made. What are the names of those organizations?

A The ones I recall are the William Randolph Black Coalition for Black Voter Participation, the A. William Randolph Coalition for Black Voter Participation, and I think there was another organization called Vote '96.

Q Did you ever suggest individuals make contributions to an organization called Defeat 209?

A No, not that I recall.

Q Did you ever suggest individuals make contributions to an organization called Participation 2000?

A No, not that I recall.

Q Why did you ask individuals or corporations to give gifts to not­for­profit organizations?

A I never asked them to.

Q Is it fair to characterize what you said earlier that you merely responded to their questions of who might I contribute to for a not­for­profit contribution?

A That is correct.

Q Have you ever met an individual named Warren Meddoff?

A No, I have not.

Q Have you been contacted about a possible contribution from Mr. Meddoff prior to November 1996?

A By whom?

Q By anybody. Prior to November of 1996?

A Mr. Fowler contacted me about it.

Q And what did he ask you or tell you?

A He asked if I had heard the name Meddoff, or I believe there was another individual working with him who had indicated that they may make a large contribution to the DNC. Mr. Fowler was concerned because of the size of the contribution and the timing of the contribution and the fact that Mr. Meddoff was not known to myself and other individual fund­raisers at the DNC. He had some suspicions about their motives, their sincerity, and whether they were for real or not.

Q What did you tell Mr. Fowler?

A I told him that I did not know Mr. Meddoff. I don't recall the company he represented himself aligned with, but I didn't know that either. As I said earlier, there was another gentleman involved, and I did not know that gentleman either.

Q Did Mr. Fowler ask you to do any research on Mr. Meddoff or Mr. Meddoff's associate?

A Yes. They sort of I guess indicated that they were in the financial field, so he asked that I call, if I could request of donors who were also in the finance field if they knew of these individuals.

Q And did you make calls to ­­

A I recall two calls that I made, yes.

Q Who did you call?

A A gentleman named Steven Rattner, and a gentleman named Elliott Wolk.

Q The spelling of the second gentleman's name is?

A W­O­L­K.

Q And what did they tell you about Mr. Meddoff?

A Neither of them had heard of him or the company which they represented.

Q Did you communicate this to Mr. Fowler?

A I did.

Q And did he ask you to do anything else?

A He did not.

Q Did you have any ­­ did you receive any requests from anybody outside of the DNC about information pertaining to Mr. Meddoff prior to November of 1996?

A No, I ­­ no.

Q Do you know whether the DNC ever provided a list of Chinese American trustees to anyone at the Taiwan Economic and Cultural Representative Office in the United States?

A Not to my knowledge.

Q Do you know an individual named Andrew Hsi, spelled H­S­I?

A I do not.

Q Have you ever had any contacts with Andrew Hsi?

A No, I have not.

Q Do you know an individual named Steve Boyd?

A Yes.

Q Has Mr. Boyd ever asked you to provide a list of trustees to him?

A Not that I recall, no.

Q Do you know whether Mr. Boyd asked you to provide a list of trustees to anyone else?

A Not that I have any recollection of.

Q I provide the witness with a document which has been marked Exhibit AS­20.

[Swiller Deposition Exhibit No. AS­20

was marked for identification.]

BY MR. WILSON:

Q It has been Bates marked DNC 1761511. It is a memorandum to Ari Swiller from Matt, dated April 21, subject, loose ends. If you can take just a moment to review this document.

A Okay.

RPTS STALLSWORTH

DCMN HERZFELD

[4:30 p.m.]

A Okay.

Q Do you know who the individual was, "Matt," at the top of the memo is?

A Yeah. It's Matt Gobush.

Q Do you recall ever having seen this memo?

A Yes, I do.

Q Referring to the last bullet mark paragraph of the memorandum, it states that "Steve Boyd has requested a list of Chinese­American Trustees for Andrew Hsi of the Secretariat of Taiwan per the request of Jim Brady, DNC Vice Chair."

Do you recall having any conversations about Mr. Boyd requesting a list of Chinese­American trustees?

A I don't.

Q Do you remember having seen this at the time that the memorandum was given to you?

A I ­­

Q This statement.

A This statement. I don't have a recollection of it, but I remember seeing a memorandum.

Q Did you ask Mr. Gobush for further information about this, the request about a list of Chinese­American trustees for the Secretariat of Taiwan?

A Not that I recall.

Q Did Mr. Gobush provide any additional information to that which is in this memorandum?

A Not that I can recall.

Q Do you recall having any conversations with anybody or contacts with anybody about providing lists of trustees for somebody in the Secretariat of Taiwan?

A No, I do not recall any.

Q Do you know whether Mr. Gobush sent over such a list to the Secretariat of Taiwan?

A Not to my knowledge.

Q Do you recall whether at the time that this struck you as being an unusual request?

A It strikes me now as one. I don't recall my reaction to it at that time.

Q Have you ever provided a list of trustees to any organization outside of the DNC?

A Not to my knowledge. I was very protective of the list.

Mr. Wilson. I've given the witness a memorandum which has been marked AS­21. It's premarked DNC 1781772. It's a memorandum dated April 24, 1995, to Steve Boyd from Mr. Swiller and Nancy Burke. It's re: Chinese­American trustees. This memorandum lists three ­­ actually five individuals: Mr. Johnny Chung, Mr. Charlie Trie, Mrs. Wang Mei Trie, Dr. C.J. Wang and Dr. Mildred Wang.

[Swiller Deposition Exhibit No. AS­21

was marked for identification.]

BY MR. WILSON:

Q Do you recall ever having seen this memorandum?

A No, I don't recall seeing it.

Q Who is Nancy Burke?

A She was my assistant on the trustee program after Mr. Gobush left. She worked at my direction.

Q Did Ms. Burke and Mr. Gobush overlap in their terms of employment?

A Maybe by a week as a transition period.

Q Do you recall whether Ms. Burke ever discussed with you sending names of Chinese­American trustees to Mr. Boyd?

A I don't recall the conversation, no.

Q Referring back to the previous document, the date is not specific. It says April 21st, and a year is not included in the first document. The second document is dated April 24 of 1995. I believe April 21st is a Friday and April 24 is a Monday. Is there ­­.

The Witness. Excuse me one second.

[Witness and counsel confer.]

The Witness. Sorry.

Mr. Pierson. Perhaps, counsel, it might be more useful if you're trying to fix the year to ask the witness if he recalls when Mr. Gobush was employed at the DNC.

BY MR. WILSON:

Q When was Mr. Gobush employed at the DNC?

A He was employed at the DNC through ­­ through the end of April, I believe, in 1995.

Mr. Pierson. And he began at what time?

The Witness. He began in ­­ about a year prior.

BY MR. WILSON:

Q Do you have a recollection of the month that he began his employment?

A I don't.

Q Okay. Who is Steve Boyd?

A I believe he worked in the Office of the Secretary of the DNC.

Q And what is the Office of the Secretary in the DNC responsible for doing?

A I don't know. They are responsible for making sure that the Secretary of the DNC is well seated at all DNC events. Other than that, I think they maintain the bylaws of the party, but I'm not sure what their day­to­day responsibilities are.

Q Did you receive other requests from Mr. Boyd ­­ well I shouldn't say other requests. Did you receive any requests that you recollect from Mr. Boyd during your employment at the DNC?

A Not that I recall.

Q Do you know Anne Lewis?

A I know who she is.

Q Have you ever met her?

A I believe I have, yes.

Q Do you know Lynn Cutler?

A Yes, I do.

Q And do you know her personally?

A Yes I do.

Q Do you know of any donations ­­ did you ever recommend donations be made to the Back to Business group.

A No I did not.

Q Were you ever part of any ­­ of discussions wherein it was suggested the DNC donors made contributions to the Back to Business organization?

A Yes, I believe I was ­­ yes.

Q And if you could, please describe those discussions.

A I believe Ms. Cutler at some point made a request for some names that may be outreached to for that organization.

Q Did Ms. Cutler make the request directly of you?

A As I recall, yes.

Q And how did you respond?

A I did not respond.

Q Did you send her any names?

A Not that I recall.

Q Did you suggest any names that she might contact?

A Not that I recall.

Q Do you recall in a general sense what you told her?

A I think it ­­ when she asked, I said I would look into it. But I remember feeling that it would be counterproductive to my efforts to raise money, so I ­­ I don't recall her ever following up, so I didn't do any proactive follow up.

Q When you left the DNC in March of 1997, or at any time previous to your leaving the DNC, did you sign a memorandum about the retention or nondestruction of documents?

A Yes, I believe so.

Q Do you know when you might have signed such a document?

A Prior to leaving the DNC.

Q Do you remember when ­­ when the document was circulated for you to be signed?

A Around the new year, December, January; maybe earlier.

Q And do you recall signing this document?

A I believe I did, yes.

Q When you ­­ in 1995, were you aware of a suggestion by campaign consultant Dick Morris about a large­scale media purchase for the end of 1995?

A At that time, no.

Q And I'm speaking specifically about that time.

A No, I'm not.

Q Did you become aware of such a suggestion at any time before November of 1996?

A I became aware that the DNC was making large purchases of TV time. I don't know at what point that I became aware it was at his suggestion. I knew we were doing it, and when I became aware of that Mr. Morris was involved in that discussion, I can't recollect exactly when that was.

Q Did you contact any of the trustee donors to provide additional contributions for media purchases at the end of 1995?

A As I recall, no, there was no direct contributions made to direct media purchases. There was general fund­raising that was always at an increase because we always needed more money. As we started to, as I recall, buy more media time, our expenditures grew, so we were required to raise more money. I don't know that that ­­ I can't recall directing anyone that their funds would go to media purchase, because I don't believe that that was ever the case.

Q Do you know whether anybody at the DNC was involved in keeping track of funds or monies to be directed towards media purchases at the end of 1995?

A Not that I have knowledge of, no.

Q Do you recall whether there were any specific accounting systems set up to keep track of funds that might be expended in media buys at the end of 1995?

A No.

Q Did you have any involvement with funds being wired to State parties to implement media buys at the end of 1995?

A I don't recall that.

Q Did you have any direct contact with any State party officials in terms of providing contributions to the State parties from the DNC?

A No. I don't recall speaking to State party officials.

Q Were you involved in any discussions of sending DNC monies to State parties?

A No, not that I recall.

Mr. Pierson. May I hear the last question and answer, please?

[The reporter read back as requested.]

Mr. Pierson. Excuse me just a moment.

[Witness and counsel confer.]

Mr. Pierson. Are you asking for his discussion with anybody inside the DNC, any contributors, anybody in the world?

Mr. Wilson. Any ­­

Mr. Pierson. Because he's already testified about the Tamraz situation.

Mr. Wilson. Correct. Any of the DNC colleagues.

[Witness and counsel confer.]

Mr. Pierson. Start your question again, because I think he's thinking about something different than you're asking. So ask again if you would, please.

BY MR. WILSON:

Q Were you involved in any meetings or discussions with DNC colleagues about ­­ about forwarding DNC monies to State parties?

Mr. Pierson. What you're talking about is money that has gone into DNC accounts and thereafter would go to State parties?

Mr. Wilson. Correct.

The Witness. No.

Mr. Pierson. Okay.

BY MR. WILSON:

Q Unfortunately, this is depressing for me to go back and look at the pile that I went passed earlier, but a couple of quick questions on a few more issues.

Mr. Pierson. Far more depressing to us.

Mr. Wilson. I'm hoping to come within the last 4 or 5 minutes of my questioning.

Mr. Pierson. Good.

Mr. Wilson. Maybe a little longer.

Mr. Pierson. Good.

BY MR. WILSON:

Q Did you ever draft, suggest a list of DNC contributors to stay as overnight guests in the White House?

Mr. Pierson. Do you mean did he ever propose names for overnight stays in the White House?

BY MR. WILSON:

Q Well, the first question is did you ever send the list or draft lists of suggested overnight guests at the White House?

A I don't recall drafting it, no.

Q Did you ever make suggestions of individuals to be overnight guests at the White House?

A On occasion, yes.

Q Do you recall specifically who you suggested as an overnight guest?

A No. My recollection would be that there had been long­standing fund­raisers and trustees who have been significantly supportive throughout the years.

Q And to whom would you communicate your suggestions?

A I think initially I communicated suggestions to Ms. Hartigan and Mr. McAuliffe; subsequent to the transition, to Mr. Sullivan and Mr. Rosen.

Q Did you ever communicate directly with the White House with suggestions of potential overnight guests?

A No, not that I recall.

Q Did you ever receive telephone calls or contact from the White House about suggested overnight guests?

A No.

Q Did you ever travel on Air Force One or Air Force Two?

A No.

Q Did you ever suggest individuals to travel on Air Force One or Air Force Two?

A Yes, I did.

Q And what criteria would you use to make such a suggestion?

A Same criteria as I stated earlier: People who had been long­standing supporters or longtime fund­raisers of the party.

Q And who would you communicate your suggestions to?

A As I stated earlier, at first I ­­ I would to Mr. McAuliffe and Ms. Hartigan; following the transition, to Mr. Sullivan and Mr. Rosen.

Q Did you ever discuss requests for positions on boards or commissions with DNC donors?

A Yes, I did.

Q And who did ­­ who did you discuss board or commission positions with?

A I can't recall all the donors. I remember Ms. Betsy Cohen made a request about an inquiry. I think Elaine Shuster.

Q Do you remember any other names?

A I believe there may have been others that I spoke with about it but not coming to mind.

Mr. Wilson. I've given the witness a document which is marked Exhibit AS­22. It's been Bates marked DNC 3052822, memorandum to Mr. Swiller and Richard Sullivan from Eric Sildon and Jay Dunn, dated January 24, 1994.

[Swiller Deposition Exhibit No. AS­22

was marked for identification.]

BY MR. WILSON:

Q Do you recall ever receiving requests from the Commerce Department for potential board members?

A No, I don't.

Q Do you recall having seen this memorandum?

A I do not recall it.

Q Do you remember whether you ever submitted names of individuals as recommendees for the President's Export Council?

A I don't recall it.

Q Do you remember any ­­ anybody following up on this request ­­ any request for names to be submitted for the President's Export Council?

A I don't recall it.

Q Did you ever suggest that DNC donors attend White House movies?

A No.

Q Are you familiar with the term of art "White House database"?

A Yes.

Q Did you ever have access to any materials produced by the White House database?

A Yes.

Q And what materials did you have access to?

A I remember ­­ I didn't have physical access, but requesting of someone who had access to see whether certain people had been invited to certain events at the White House.

Q And did you make a request to obtain this information?

A Yes I did.

Q And who did you make the request of?

A A gentleman named Donald Dunn.

Q And who is Mr. Dunn?

A At that time he worked in the Office of Political Affairs at the White House.

Q And did you make requests on more than one occasion of Mr. Dunn to provide this information?

A Yes.

Q What was the format of the information that he provided?

A There was no format. He would ­­ it was voice conversation.

Q Is it fair to say that you provided him with a name, and he provided you an answer as to ­­

A Correct.

Q ­­ whether the person had or had not been invited?

A Correct.

Q Did you ever provide information to be included in the White House database?

A Not that I recall.

Q Did Mr. Dunn ever make requests of either yourself or staff in your office to provide any information?

A Not that I recall.

Q Do you recall speaking with Mr. Dunn on more than the one occasion that you just discussed?

A I spoke to Mr. Dunn probably half a dozen times.

Q And was it always for the same reason?

A Some ­­ no, at certain times I made a request of Mr. Dunn to provide a White House tour for family or individual donors.

Q Did you ever receive any lists of names or information that was generated by the White House database?

A I don't know if it was generated by the database, but I received a list of names from the Office of the Social Secretary.

Q And what were these lists of names for?

A On occasion they would request of us lists of possible invitees to events that the White House would be hosting. They would send back a response list.

Q Do you know whether the DNC had an autopen for the President's signature?

A My recollection is that we did not have one.

Q Regarding materials that had the President's signature, and I'll ask you specifically about photographs that were signed by the President, when you were attempting to obtain photographs for people, who would you make your requests of?

A For the photographs?

Q Yeah.

A Sometimes Mr. Dunn. There was a woman at the DNC that I worked with, a woman named Brooke Stroud, who would assist in obtaining photographs from the White House.

Q Just a ­­ I think my last question on this go­around, you mentioned at the very beginning when we were discussing Ernst & Young and the materials Ernst & Young prepared that you knew of an Ernst & Young individual who was a trustee. Who was that individual?

A His name was Jeffrey Hershberg.

Q And when did you meet him, or have you ever met him?

A I have met him. I believe I didn't meet him until I returned to the DNC. He was already a trustee at that time. So subsequent to my return, beginning of 19 ­­ end of 1993, beginning of 1994.

Q What was his job at Ernst & Young?

A He was vice president ­­ vice chairman was his title. I believe he directed the Washington office, lobbying office, for the company.

Q Do you know if he is still an Ernst & Young employee?

A When I left here 5 months ago, he was. I have not had contact with him in 5 months since I left, so today I do not know.

Q How did you obtain your current job in California?

A I knew an individual who was working with the same company who had the position basically as I have it now. And he was leaving the position to assume a different role and approached me about filling the position.

Q And who was this individual?

[Witness confers with counsel.]

Mr. Lu. Counsel, I don't know how much you're going to ­­

Mr. Pierson. Just let him answer this question.

The Witness. The gentleman's name is Darius Anderson.

Mr. Wilson. Thank you very much. That concludes my round of questioning.

Mr. Lu. Can we take just a quick 5­minute break while I confer with counsel?

Mr. Wilson. Can we go off the record for a second?

[Discussion off the record.]

[Brief recess.]

Mr. Lu. Let's go back on the record.

Mr. Wilson, I ­­ you're done with your questioning?

Mr. Wilson. Yes, I am.

Mr. Lu. Okay.

EXAMINATION BY MR. LU:

Q Mr. Swiller, on behalf of the Democratic Members of the committee, I want to thank you for coming in today. I realize this must have been a great burden on you coming from the west coast, but we appreciate your time.

Just a couple clarifying questions I want to ask you. Can you tell me again how many trustees or managing trustees there were at the DNC during the time you worked there?

A It grew during the time I was there. By the time I was finished, or by the time in the '96 election, it was approximately around 800.

Q About 800.

Mr. Wilson has asked you about a number of them today and a couple of more newsworthy ones. At the time that you worked at the DNC prior to November of 1996, had there been any news accounts about Johnny Chung, Pauline Kanchanalak, Charlie Trie?

A Not that I recall, no.

Q So at that time, you, prior to November 1996, you had no particular reason to pay special attention to correspondence that you received from them or requests that you received from them any more than from any other trustee?

A That's correct.

Q I would like to ask you to clarify the terms "trustee" and "managing trustee." When I think about a university having a board of trustees or a company having a board of directors, I have a sense that these people play a role in the day­to­day operations of a university, a corporation, what have you, and especially when I think about the terms "managing trustee" or "managing director." My understanding, however, is that with regard to the DNC, the use of the term "trustee" and "managing trustee" is more of an honorary term. Is that consistent with your understanding?

A No. My understanding is they are ­­ the names were consistent with the level of contribution or level of funds raised for the party.

Q Well, no, I think what my question was really getting at is whether those people had a role in the day­to­day operation of the DNC?

A Absolutely not.

Q With regard to Pauline Kanchanalak, I gather that she was a trustee at the time that you joined ­­ you rejoined the DNC in December of 1993?

A That's my recollection, correct.

Q So from there on out, when you received checks from her that were P. Kanchanalak, you had no reason to believe that they were anything other than checks from Pauline Kanchanalak?

A That's correct.

Q I believe you also testified that you attempted to contact Mr. John Huang when he worked at the Department of Commerce; isn't that correct?

A That's correct.

Q Did you actually getting ahold of Mr. Huang that one time you tried to call him?

A I never did.

Q With regard to Johnny Chung, I believe you said when you visited him at his office in California in spring of 1995, you chuckled because you saw a whole wall full of photos that he had taken. You mentioned that there were some of Republican leaders. Did he tell you or did you ask him how he obtained those photos?

A No, I don't recall that conversation.

Q Did you have any understanding as to whether he had given money to the Republican Party or attended Republican fund­raising events?

A Judging from the pictures, they were very similar to DNC­type staged pictures, so I assumed that ­­ it was just an assumption on my own, but not a discussion ­­ that they were ­­ you know, that he received pictures like that at fund­raising events.

Q When we spoke about Mr. Ruggiero, Mr. Joseph Ruggiero, you explained that had he complained that he had received much better treatment by the RNC in getting access to the Bush White House. And you ­­ I believe you had mentioned some of the perks that he had received as a result of giving money to the RNC.

Other than your conversation, that conversation with Mr. Ruggiero or that understanding as a result of Mr. Ruggiero, do you have any understanding of the types of perks that the Republican National Committee offered to its large donors?

A My understanding was that they included many more of their financial supporters at events at the White House, at small delegation meetings, meetings with Members of Congress much more frequently as a system of their fund­raising apparatus.

I also recall, when we were discussing the possibility of putting together a brochure for our trustees, we referenced the RNC Team 100 brochure, which, as I recall, had a picture of what they called a trade mission. It was a picture at the wall of China of approximately 50 people standing at the wall and indicated that, you know, their ­­ through the RNC's efforts, these donors met with the highest­level officials in other countries.

Q And did you gather from that photo that that RNC trade mission included officials of whether it be the Reagan administration or the Bush administration?

A I couldn't draw that conclusion, no.

Q Were you aware of any perks that the RNC offered to its large donors that the DNC did not offer to its large donors?

A I don't recall ever having the opportunity to bring individual donors to the Oval Office to provide photos there. It was always joked about, and I don't know the truth of this, that the Republicans were much better at giving large contracts to their supporters than we, and we couldn't figure out how to do that, which I just took it as that and never looked into it or did anything to follow up if that was true.

Q With regard to these ­­ I think you said these meetings that ­­ your ability to bring people to the Oval Office to meet with the President, I believe you had earlier testified that some contributors had asked you for ­­ to set up meetings with the President and the Vice President, and you had declined those requests because you thought that was inappropriate?

A That's correct.

Q Okay. With regards to government boards and commissions, the fact that you or someone at the DNC submitted a name for a government board did not necessarily mean that the White House would accept that name; isn't that correct?

A More often than not there was no response to my request, or the name was not accepted.

Q In fact, when there's ­­ typically when there's an opening on a government board or commission, many people both inside and outside the administration submit names for boards and commissions; isn't that correct?

A That's my understanding correct.

Q Mr. Swiller, the last set of questions I have for you are requested by Congressman Condit. He's asked us to ask these of all the witnesses that are testifying before us.

I believe you've told us that you've provided deposition testimony to the Senate; isn't that correct?

A That's correct.

Q And I'm curious, when you first learned that this committee wanted to take this deposition, did you wonder why you needed to be deposed again after you had already been deposed by the Senate?

A Yes, I did.

Q Can you estimate for me just very roughly what percentage of the questions you were asked today were also asked by the Senate?

A 80 percent.

Q 80 percent. And I also understand you've been interviewed by the FBI?

A That's correct.

Q And I gather a lot of the questions that the FBI asked were the same ones that have been asked today?

A That's correct.

Q Have you been notified of any other testimony that you're scheduled to give in the future?

A Not yet.

Q And I believe that when ­­ I believe that you were at the DNC when some of the first congressional document requests were served upon the DNC; is that correct?

A That's correct.

Q Do you recall how much time you spent searching for documents at the DNC responsive to those requests?

A Probably each request required half a day of work.

Q Can you estimate a total of ­­

A Four hours. I think there were three requests.

Q Four hours for each request?

A Right.

Q Okay. And since you have left the DNC, have you spent any time searching for documents responsive to document requests?

A I no longer have any documents.

Q Other than the time that you've spent in this deposition, how much other time ­­ well, actually let me stop that question.

In connection with this entire investigation, can you give me an estimate of how much time you have spent? And that would include the Senate testimony, the FBI testimony, your testimony here, all the preparation time, all the travel time, conversations. We'll leave it at that.

A Probably 2 weeks of time.

Q And I assume this is the time that you have not been able to spend at your job?

A That's correct.

Q Other than your time, this 2 weeks that you've said, have you ­­ I've assumed you've incurred other expenses to come here, travel expenses, hotel expenses, things like that?

A Most of the travel expenses have been incurred by the committees that have requested my presence, and the majority of the burden of my expenses has been placed on the DNC.

Q And obviously there's the time off from work I gather?

A Oh, yeah. I mean, that's probably the greatest expense, my lost time.

Q And if it is available, will you seek reimbursement from this committee for your time?

A Yes.

Mr. Wilson. I have nothing further. Thank you again for coming today.

The Witness. Sure.

Mr. Pierson. Sorry for coaching.

Mr. Wilson. Thank you very much, Mr. Swiller.

Mr. Pierson. Thank you, gentlemen.

[Whereupon, at 5:12 p.m., the deposition concluded.]

CONTENTS

EXHIBITS: PAGE

Swiller Deposition Exhibit No. AS­1

was marked for identification.............................. 39

Swiller Deposition Exhibit No. AS­2

was marked for identification.............................. 48

Swiller Deposition Exhibit No. AS­3

was marked for identification.............................. 55

Swiller Deposition Exhibit No. AS­4

was marked for identification.............................. 56

Swiller Deposition Exhibit No. AS­5

was marked for identification.............................. 61

Swiller Deposition Exhibit No. AS­6

was marked for identification.............................. 69

Swiller Deposition Exhibit No. AS­7

was marked for identification.............................. 73

Swiller Deposition Exhibit No. AS­8

was marked for identification.............................. 74

Swiller Deposition Exhibit No. AS­9

was marked for identification.............................. 98

Swiller Deposition Exhibit No. AS­10

was marked for identification............................. 105

Swiller Deposition Exhibit No. AS­11

was marked for identification............................. 109

Swiller Deposition Exhibit No. AS­12

was marked for identification..............................111

Swiller Deposition Exhibit No. AS­13

was marked for identification............................. 117

Swiller Deposition Exhibit No. AS­14

was marked for identification............................. 140

Swiller Deposition Exhibit No. AS­15

was marked for identification............................. 142

Swiller Deposition Exhibit No. AS­16

was marked for identification............................. 149

Swiller Deposition Exhibit No. AS­17

was marked for identification............................. 171

Swiller Deposition Exhibit No. AS­18

was marked for identification............................. 172

Swiller Deposition Exhibit No. AS­19

was marked for identification............................. 179

Swiller Deposition Exhibit No. AS­20

was marked for identification............................. 185

Swiller Deposition Exhibit No. AS­21

was marked for identification............................. 189

Swiller Deposition Exhibit No. AS­22

was marked for identification............................. 198

CONTENTS

OBJECTIONS: PAGE

Mr. Pierson. Counsel, the DNC is not represented here.

You may be inquiring into frivolous conversations, and

the privilege may be waived, but we're in a position

where, if this ­­ if you're asking about conversations

with counsel for the DNC, I'm going to have to instruct

the witness that he's going to have to decline to

describe the content in order to reserve the privilege.

It's not ours, but it's also not ours to waive............. 77

Mr. Pierson. We have to assert the privilege. And

it's ­­ it's only because we're preserving it for the

DNC. It's not our privilege to waive...................... 81