RPTS RYAN
DCMN PARKER
EXECUTIVE SESSION
COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM AND OVERSIGHT
U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
WASHINGTON, D.C.
DEPOSITION OF: THOMAS FRANKLIN MCLARTY, III
Friday, September 5, 1997
Washington, D.C.
The deposition in the above matter was held in Room 2203, Rayburn House Office Building, commencing at 8:43 a.m.
Appearances:
Staff Present for the Government Reform and Oversight Committee: Barbara Comstock, Chief Investigative Counsel; Kristi Remington, Investigative Counsel; Alicemary Leach, Investigative Counsel; Elliott Berke, Investigative Counsel; Michelle E. White, Investigative Counsel; Tom Bossir, Investigative Counsel; David Bossie, Ovesight Coordinator; Kenneth Ballen, Minority Chief Investigative Counsel; Andrew J. McLaughlin, Minority Counsel; Matthew H. Joseph, Minority Counsel; Michael J. Raphael, Minority Counsel; and Michael Yang, Minority Counsel.
For MR. MCLARTY:
WILLIAM W. TAYLOR, ESQ.
LESLIE BERGER KIERNAN, ESQ.
Zuckerman, Spaeder, Goldstein, Taylor & Kolker, L.L.P.
1201 Connecticut Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 200362638
ALSO PRESENT: Representative Kanjorski.
Ms. Remington. Good morning, Mr. McLarty. I'd like to begin by saying thank you on behalf of the members of the Committee on Government Reform and Oversight for appearing here today. This proceeding is known as a deposition. The person transcribing this proceeding is a House reporter and notary public. I will now request the reporter place you under oath.
THEREUPON,
THOMAS FRANKLIN MCLARTY, III,
a witness, was called for examination by Counsel, and after having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
Ms. Remington. I would like to note for the record those who are present at the beginning of this deposition. Ms. Barbara Comstock is the designated Majority counsel for the committee. She will be accompanied by me, Kristi Remington, who is also with the Majority staff. Ken Ballen is the designated Minority counsel for the committee and he is accompanied today by Matthew Joseph and Andrew McLaughlin. And the deponent is represented today by Mr. Bill Taylor
and
Mr. Taylor. Leslie Kiernan.
Ms. Remington. Although this proceeding is being held in a somewhat informal atmosphere, because you have been placed under oath, your testimony here today has the same force and effect as if you were testifying before the committee or in a courtroom. If Ms. Comstock asks you about any conversations you have had in the past and you are unable to recall the exact words used in the conversation, you may state that you are unable to recall those exact words and then you may give the substance of any such conversation to the best of your recollection.
If you recall only part of a conversation or only part of an event, please give me your best recollection of those events or parts of conversations that you do recall.
If we ask you whether you have any information upon a particular subject and you have overheard other persons conversing with each other regarding it or have seen correspondence or documentation regarding it, please tell us that you do have such information and indicate the source, either a conversation or documentation or otherwise from which you have derived such knowledge.
Before we begin at questioning, I want to give you some background on the investigation and your appearance here. Pursuant to its authority under House Rules 10 and 11 of the House of Representatives, the committee is engaged in a wideranging review of possible political fundraising improprieties and possible violations of law.
Pages 2 through 4 of House Report 105139 summarize the investigation as of June 19, 1997, and encompass any new matters which arise directly or indirectly in the course of the investigation. Also pages 4 through 11 of the report explain the background of the investigation.
All questions related either directly or indirectly to these issues or questions which have the tendency to make the existence of any pertinent fact more or less probable than it would be without the evidence are proper.
The committee has been granted specific authorization to conduct this deposition pursuant to House Resolution 167, which passed the full House on June 20, 1997. Committee Rule 20 of which you have received a copy outlines the ground rules for the deposition.
Majority and Minority committee counsels will ask you questions regarding the subject matter of the investigation. Minority counsel will ask questions after Majority counsel has finished. After the Minority counsel has completed questioning you, a new round of questioning may begin.
Members of Congress who wish to ask questions will be afforded immediate opportunity to ask their questions. When they are finished, committee counsels will resume questioning.
Pursuant to the committee's rules, you're allowed to have an attorney present to advise you of your rights. Any objection raised during the course of the deposition shall be noted for the record. If the witness is instructed not to answer a question or otherwise refuses to answer a question, Majority and Minority counsel will confer to determine whether the objection is proper.
If Majority and Minority counsels agree that a question is proper, the witness will be asked to answer the question. If an objection is not withdrawn, the Chairman or Member designated by the Chairman may decide whether the objection is proper.
This deposition is considered as taken in executive session of the committee, which means it may not be made public without the committee's consent. Pursuant to clause 2(k)7 of House Rule 11, you will be asked to abide by the Rules of the House and not discuss this deposition with anyone other than your attorneys or the issues and questions raised during this proceeding.
Finally, no later than 5 days after your testimony is transcribed and you have been notified that your transcript is available, you may submit suggested changes to the Chairman. The transcript will be available for your view at the committee office. Committee staff may make any typographical and technical changes requested by you. Any substantive changes, modifications, clarifications or amendments to the deposition transcript submitted by you must be accompanied by a letter requesting the changes and a statement of your reasons for each proposed change.
A letter requesting any substantive changes, modifications, clarifications or amendments must be signed by you. Any changes to the transcript will be included as an appendix conditioned upon you signing the transcript.
Do you understand everything we've gone over so far.
The Witness. I believe that I do.
Ms. Remington. Do you have any questions about anything?
Mr. Taylor. I'd like to say one thing regarding your instruction about sources of information. I will say to you that Mr. McLarty's answer also not include information the only source for which is his own counsel.
Ms. Remington. Attorneyclient information.
Mr. Taylor. Attorneyclient. If you ask if he has information about a subject and his only source for that information is conversations with his counsel, then his correct answer is, no.
Ms. Comstock. Are you saying his answer would not be on the information by the counsel, but his answer would be, no?
Mr. Taylor. Right.
Ms. Comstock. That he has no knowledge?
Mr. Taylor. If you would like, he can say the only information I have on that source came from my own counsel.
Ms. Comstock. I think that might clarify it better. I think, Mr. McLarty, that would be better. So if there is some reason
Mr. Taylor. But we disclaim any obligation to respond pursuant to your instructions when the source of his information is his own counsel.
Ms. Comstock. But if he could indicate that that's the source, then I think we can end it there.
Mr. Ballen. Similarly in that regard, it seems like the instructions call for any hearsay information. Certainly, at a minimum, if the witness could identify whether a source is not his own personal knowledge, that would be helpful because I think the committee wants personal knowledge, not hearsay. In addition
Ms. Comstock. That's the reason we say provide the source of your knowledge, because if you've heard other people talking about it or you personally witnessed it, all the sources that you provide us, provide us an indication of the validity of the information.
Mr. Ballen. Well, without getting into extended discussion, I think the Minority takes a very different view of hearsay information perhaps and the question is reliability, admissibility in these proceedings. Secondly, though, as to any objections as to pertinency or relevancy, those objections must be considered ultimately by the full committee. The Chair may make a ruling. Any ruling by the Chair is appealable to the full committee.
And if you could, Majority counsel, identify some of the other people in the room for the witness and counsel.
Ms. Remington. Let me just finish some of the rules that we have during a deposition proceeding. If you don't understand a question, please say so and counsel will repeat it or rephrase it so that you do understand the question. The reporter will be taking down everything we say and will make a written record of the deposition.
You must give verbal, audible answers because the reporter cannot understand what a nod of the head or other gesture means. If you can't hear us, please say so, and the counsel will repeat the question or have the court reporter read the question back to you.
Please wait until counsel finishes each question before answering, and we will wait until you finish your answer before we ask a next question. This way the reporter will then have a clear record.
Your testimony is being taken under oath as if we were in court and if you answer a question, it will be assumed that you understood the question and the answer was intended to be responsive to it.
Do you understand that.
The Witness. I believe that I do.
Ms. Remington. Are you here voluntarily or as a result of a subpoena.
The Witness. I'm here voluntarily.
Ms. Remington. Do you have any questions about the deposition before we begin the substantive portion of the proceeding?
The Witness. I don't believe I have any at this time.
Mr. Taylor. No.
Ms. Remington. Let me go ahead and identify the other people present in the room. We have investigative counsel Alicemary Leach and Michelle White of the Majority staff and Elliott
Mr. Berke. Berke, BERKE.
Ms. Remington. Berke of the Majority staff, as well.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q Let's give your full name and spell it for the record. Just give your full name.
A Thomas Franklin McLarty, III.
Q And your current address, please?
A [Deleted.]
Mr. Taylor. Can that information not be part of the public record, his home address?
Ms. Comstock. Yes, if you request it when the depositions are made public, we could.
Mr. Taylor. I request that that matter not be placed on the transcript at this point and any other time. You can have his home address, if you need it, but there should not be a document which comes into the public record with Mr. McLarty's home address on it.
Mr. Ballen. We agree with that and we object to the question.
Mr. Taylor. I will go to the Chair of this committee if we can't agree that that information does not appear in the transcript.
Ms. Comstock. You're talking about the public transcript?
Mr. Ballen. Any transcript.
Mr. Taylor. I'm talking about any transcript.
Ms. Comstock. You're asking that that be stricken from the record this morning, his address?
Mr. Taylor. Absolutely.
Ms. Comstock. Maybe what we can do if you agree to provide it for our investigative purposes, if you can agree to provide the address and phone number of Mr. McLarty separate from the record just for the committee, that wouldn't be part of the transcript if that would be satisfactory.
Mr. Ballen. I don't understand what the investigative purpose is to have Mr. McLarty's home address. That's my objection to it. If there was some legitimate investigative purpose, you could have it. But I don't understand why we need his home address.
Ms. Comstock. Well, we have phone records that we have and there may be others that we may need to get so we may want it identify all phone numbers and know that we have the, we have the right phone number by knowing Mr. McLarty's correct address, so I think it is for purposes of knowing that and I'm happy to not have the address on the transcript record. That will not be a problem.
Mr. Taylor. Fine.
Ms. Comstock. If we can instruct the reporter in preparing this we can have that not be even on the paper record. If you just want to take that question out altogether, that will be fine.
Mr. Taylor. Thank you.
Ms. Comstock. And I guess also ask in terms of the phone records, if you could provide any cellar phone numbers that Mr. McLarty has had since January 20th, 1993.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q Have you, indeed, had any cell phones since
January 20, 1993?
A I don't believe I have used them.
Q A specific cell phone?
A I don't use a cell phone often.
Mr. Taylor. Ms. Comstock, we've provided you with all that information last year in connection with the Travel Office. It is in your
Ms. Comstock. All of the phone numbers to date.
Mr. Taylor. Yes.
Ms. Comstock. So the phone numbers we had as of last year will still be correct as of this year?
Mr. Taylor. We'll verify that for you.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q Okay. I'm not going to go through extensive background because we've also gone through that before, but could you just provide the dates when you were at Arkla?
A I started in 1983 and served until 1992.
Q And when did you leave in 1992?
A In December of 1992.
Q And that was during the Clinton/Gore transition?
A Yes.
Q And you were then part of the transition in your capacity as the named Chief of Staff?
A I believe that's correct. I had been asked to serve as Chief of Staff, and I think that's when I officially left Arkla.
Q And you began work at the White House on January 20, 1993; is that correct?
A That is correct.
Q And you served in this capacity as Chief of Staff until approximately the summer of 1994; is that correct?
A That is correct.
Q And then you became counsel to the President; is that correct?
A That is correct.
Q And is that a position in which you currently serve?
A No, it is not.
Q Okay. Could you just walk us through your counsel to the President role and when that ended and your current position?
A I continue to serve as counselor to the President, but also as Special Envoy to the Americas, and I was named to that post in December of 1996.
Q All right. In 1992 were you involved in any fundraising with the President's campaign, with the Clinton/Gore campaign in 1992?
A Yes, I was supportive of the President's election and solicit some funds for that election campaign.
Q And were there individuals from your company, Arkla, from whom you solicited campaign contributions?
A I don't recall from Arkla. They generally were from friends and associates from the State and around the country.
Q Do you know if you were involved in Truman Arnold fundraising in 1992?
A I was aware Mr. Arnold was supportive of President Clinton and was a contributor.
Q And how long have you known Mr. Arnold?
A For about 25 years.
Q Did you work with Ron Brown on any fundraising matters in 1992?
A No, I did not.
Q Were you aware of a group called APAC, APAC, the Asian Pacific Advisory Counsel Committee, an Asian group in California, in 1992?
A No, I was not.
Q Do you know an individual named Nora Lum?
A No, I do not.
Q Or Gene Lum?
A No, I do not.
Q Do you know of a company named Dynamic Energy?
A I believe, with the company named Dynamic Energy.
Q And can you tell us how you're familiar with that?
A I believe
Mr. Taylor. The question is the source of your information.
Ms. Comstock. Well, if you could just tell us what you know about Dynamic Energy and then, in the course of that, if you can, the source of the information.
The Witness. It is my understanding Dynamic Energy is involved in the natural gas business in Oklahoma.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q And how did you come to learn about Dynamic Energy?
A I'm not sure how I learned of Dynamic Energy and its activities.
Q Do you know if anyone at the White House had told you about it?
A I just simply don't know where I learned that information. It is my understanding it is an independent company engaged in natural gas and perhaps the oil business in Oklahoma.
Q And were you aware of Michael Brown being involved with that company at all?
A At some point I did learn Mr. Brown, I believe, served on the board of directors.
Q And do you know approximately when you learned that?
A I believe it was sometime in 1993 or 1994.
Q Do you know an individual named Stewart Price?
A I do.
Q And how do you know Mr. Price?
A Mr. Price was introduced to me as a possible candidate for Congress in, I believe, 1993.
Q And do you know who introduced you?
A I believe Joan Baggett who was political director or assistant political director at the White House at that time introduced me to Mr. Price.
Q And do you recall what conversation you had with Mr. Price?
A I had a meeting with him in 1993 at Ms. Baggett's request and he discussed his thoughts about running for office.
Q Was this a meeting at the White House?
A It was.
Q And did you encourage Mr. Price to run?
A I was generally encouraging of his running. He seemed quite positive about it during our meeting.
Q Did you discuss any fundraising matters with Mr. Price?
A No, I don't believe that we did.
Q Do you know if you discussed with him any sources of support that you might know of to assist him in any way?
A No, I don't believe we discussed that type of subject matter.
Q Did there come a time when you became aware that Mr. Price had some legal issues with Dynamic Energy and that there was a source of disagreement between the partners of Dynamic Energy?
A At some point, I believe I was aware that there were some differences of views between Mr. Price and Mr. Brown.
Q And what were those?
A I don't I just knew there were differences of views between those two individuals.
Q Can you recall how you learned of that?
A I believe Mr. Michael Brown relayed that to me.
Q Can you generally describe what he told you.
Mr. Ballen. Excuse me, I'm going to object to this line of questioning. I mean you know I have been patient with it because I've been trying to figure out what it has to do with our investigation and how it relates to campaign finance abuse, but I fail to see any connection whatsoever with the mandate of this committee and the resolution, and maybe if counsel can enlighten me as to how it relates to our investigation, I can withdraw my objection, but other than that I feel it is objectionable.
I lodge an objection as to the pertinency and relevancy of this line of inquiry.
Ms. Comstock. I think it is public knowledge that there have been conduit payments to the Lums and Michael Brown pled guilty to Dynamic Energy and issues related to that, which is part of the committee's investigation.
Mr. Ballen. Well, I don't see the nexus to this witness.
Mr. Taylor. I can say I don't see the nexus to this witness either.
Ms. Comstock. But the witness has indicated that he did talk with Mr. Brown about his differences with Mr. Price and I'd like to continue that line of questioning.
Mr. Taylor. I think you'll rapidly find out that's all he knows so go ahead.
Ms. Comstock. And we have discussed this with counsel previously so I think we can shorten this up as much as we can.
Mr. Taylor. Great.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q If you could just tell us your discussions with Michael Brown.
A I believe Michael Brown requested an appointment with me and he told me there were some differences, as I remember it, between he and Mr. Price and I believe he said that either had been in the public record, in the press, or was going to be and he simply wanted me to know that he felt he had conducted himself properly. I listened to him and that was about the extent of our discussion.
Q Do you know why he came to you about this?
A Earlier his father, Secretary Brown, had called me about Michael's serving on Dynamic's board. I had been in the natural gas business, and asked my opinion about that. And I told him I did not know much about the company, that I thought Michael serving on its board was fine, but not perhaps active management. That was the question Secretary Brown had posed to me. So I think it was in light of that earlier discussion or conversation that Michael saw me. I don't know why he got an appointment. Obviously, you'll have to ask him.
Q And when you had this previous discussion with Ron Brown was that before Michael Brown served on the board?
A I don't know whether he was already on the board or was planning to join the board. I just simply don't know.
Q And can you place in time when you had the conversation with Michael Brown about Stewart Price?
A Ms. Comstock, sitting here today, I'm not certain. I believe it was 1994, but I can't be certain of that.
Q And did you have any other conversations with Michael Brown about Dynamic Energy?
A Not that I recall. I don't believe that I did.
Q Did you have any conversations with Ron Brown about Dynamic Energy?
A I believe it was only that one conversation with Secretary Brown as I remember it.
Q All right. And when independent counsel was appointed to look into Mr. Brown's financial dealings, did you ever become aware that Dynamic Energy was part of what the independent counsel was looking at?
A I don't believe I was aware of that.
Q And you did not then have any discussion with Ron or Michael Brown about any independent counsel investigation?
A No.
Mr. Ballen. And I'm going to object to that line of questioning. To get into what a closed independent counsel investigation Ron Brown and what Mr. McLarty may or may not have said is not within the relevant scope of this committee's inquiry.
Mr. Taylor. I agree with Mr. Ballen. But I think he's answered he didn't have any.
Ms. Comstock. Were you aware of anyone at the White House monitoring any matters relating to the Ron Brown investigation?
Mr. Ballen. Objection. Same grounds.
Mr. Taylor. Can you state the relevancy of this line of questioning?
Ms. Comstock. I'm asking whether or not Mr. McLarty is aware of anyone at the White House monitoring the investigation into Ron Brown.
Mr. Taylor. Yeah, but what's the relevance whether he knows anybody at the White House monitored the investigation?
Ms. Comstock. I'm looking into the matter relating to any obstruction of the investigations relating to the matters that were investigated.
Mr. Taylor. Nobody, Ms. Comstock, has ever suggested you can ask whether he knows about any homicides, too. You can ask if he knows about any improper conduct. But there is a scope issue here. He doesn't know anything about monitoring of any investigations, but I'm troubled by the absence of any relevance to fundraising.
Mr. Ballen. And I might note in the report the obstruction of justice language relates to Webb Hubbell and there was no mention of obstruction of justice involving Ron Brown or alleged activity thereof.
Mr. Taylor. Do you know of any?
The Witness. No, I do not.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q Were you aware of Jane Sherburne of the White House generally monitoring various investigations of the Clinton Administration?
Mr. Ballen. I'm going to renew the same objection.
Mr. Taylor. I agree. That you're aware of.
Ask the next question.
Ms. Comstock. Are you instructing the client not to answer that question?
Mr. Taylor. Yeah.
Ms. Comstock. And could you state the basis of that objection?
Mr. Taylor. First of all, I don't know what your purpose here is, but it is beginning to sound to me like issues of privilege, attorneyclient privilege, White House privilege, executive privilege may be implicated. I may have to call the Office of White House Counsel to get some instructions here.
Ms. Comstock. Well, it is well within the public purview that Ms. Sherburne had been involved with monitoring various activities. That's information that's been out in the public for over a year now. There are actually documents that were turned over to this committee last year. I'm just asking the witness if he had any knowledge of that at that time and that's information that is public at this time.
Mr. Taylor. Did he have any knowledge of Ms. Sherburne monitoring
Ms. Comstock. Any investigations at the White House.
Mr. Taylor. Do you have any knowledge of Jane's monitoring.
The Witness. I was aware that Ms. Sherburne was part of the White House Counsel's Office and dealt with various legal matters, I thought, primarily associated with the Whitewater review. I had no knowledge of her area of responsibilities and activities.
Ms. Comstock. And so she never spoke with you about any legal matters that related to you in any way?
Mr. Ballen. I'm going to object to that question.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q I mean did there ever come a time when she was speaking with you about any legal matters that were under investigation?
A I think if I had a deposition or some type of appearance
Mr. Taylor. The answer is, yes.
The Witness. That she did.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q And would that be only regarding depositions or appearances before various investigative bodies?
A Yes, I believe that's right, for any matters related to me.
Q And did anybody in the counsel's office ever speak to you about any matters related to Dynamic Energy or Oklahoma Corporation Commission?
A They may have when there was some public press. I don't recall. But they may have.
Q And do you recall what those conversations were?
Mr. Ballen. I'm going to renew my objection. Now we're into White House counsel's conversations with this witness on a matter that is not the topic of this investigation. I think it is very far afield and not a proper question for the witness.
Mr. Taylor. The question is whether you talked to members of the White House Counsel's Office about the Dynamic Energy Oklahoma Corporation Commission issues?
Ms. Comstock. Yes.
Mr. Taylor. I think you can answer that.
The Witness. I don't believe I talked with them about any Dynamic Oklahoma Corporation Commission matters at all.
Mr. Taylor. Well
The Witness. If there was a matter of public press about me, I would either inform the counsel's office or give them the background and there might have been some overlap in that way.
Mr. Taylor. At the time of the Business Week article, you had conversations with them.
The Witness. Uhhuh.
Ms. Comstock. And you're referring to a Business Week article that talked about the Oklahoma situation; is that correct?
Mr. Taylor. Right.
Ms. Comstock. So you just had discussions about the article, not the substantive discussions about any underlying facts; would that be a fair characterization?
The Witness. Well, I related to them that I thought the article was baseless and not factually correct.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q And do you recall what you told them particularly that was incorrect?
A I don't remember the specifics of the discussion. I just basically told them the article was inaccurate in my opinion and why.
Q Since we referred to the article, so that we know, this was January 20, 1997, Business Week article. Is that the article to which you're referring?
A It is.
Mr. Ballen. Does Minority counsel have a copy of that article, please?
Ms. Comstock. I gave the witness a full copy of it. I think we're missing the end of that page there.
Mr. Ballen. Okay.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q I just want to allow the witness to review it, and then if you could just generally, if you recall what you had told them was inaccurate in the article?
A I think there was the supposition that somehow the purchase of Dynamic Energy in this article by the Lums was some how related to me and any activities at Arkla, and I conveyed there was just absolutely no relationship whatsoever. I didn't know anything about the purchase of Dynamic, didn't know the Lums, Dynamic did no business with Arkla and there just was no relationship in my mind whatsoever. I knew nothing about it, and that the innuendoes and some allegations was just baseless.
Q And that's what you relayed to Jane Sherburne.
I'm sorry, she wasn't there in 1997. So you related to somebody in the counsel office.
A I believe that's right.
Q And that is your testimony here today also?
A That's right.
Q Thank you.
Mr. Ballen. I just want it very plain for the record that the Minority objects to this entire area of inquiry as beyond the scope of what the members of this committee voted on to require.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q So I'll just very quickly, then, move through this area.
You said you have no knowledge of the Lums. You would have no knowledge of any of the conduit payments or any
A I would not know the Lums if they walked in the door here.
Q And the matters relating to any conduit payments and Michael Brown, you have no knowledge of that.
A I have no knowledge about that.
Q So prior to Mr. Brown pleading guilty, you didn't know anything about those conduit payments that Mr. Brown pled guilty to?
A No, I did not.
Q And any of the conversations you had with Mr. Brown's contributions never came up?
A That never came up.
Q Were you aware of Bill Burton in your office speaking with reporters about these matters earlier in 1993 and 1994?
A Yes, I was.
Q And could you just generally describe what conversations you had with Mr. Burton and what about these matters?
A I don't believe the matters in 1993 were related to Dynamic Energy or the Lums. I think there was an article in the Oklahoma press about an allegation regarding Arkla and the Public Service Commission and whether that article became public. I think Mr. Burton responded to the press.
Q And was that regarding Bill Anderson, the lobbyist who was involved in some
A He was involved
Mr. Ballen. Objection. Again, we're under a different topic again way outside this committee's scope. I want to again object on the pertinency and relevancy lines. If counsel can show where these allegations regarding Arkla are in the committee report, I'd be happy to withdraw my objection. I don't see anything even remotely related to this in the committee report. It is important that the committee, that counsel for the committee ask questions of the witness that are related to the committee scope as voted on by the Members and that is the scope that was approved by the House, full House. I just don't see any nexus or statement that this kind of matter is in the committee's jurisdiction.
Mr. Taylor. There is no question pending. I agree with Mr. Ballen. Why don't you ask your next question.
Ms. Comstock. Well, I'd like to finish up this line of questions. I think the witness and his attorneys are aware there have been a number of allegations that are relating to these matters we're investigating, and I'd like to give the witness an opportunity. I believe he has refuted these, and I would like to give the witness an opportunity to refute.
Mr. Taylor. Well, we might enjoy that, but is the committee investigating the Arkla allegations?
Ms. Comstock. No, we're looking at matters related to the Lums and Dynamic Energy and so that is what we're looking at.
Mr. Taylor. Well, this matter is not related to the Lums and Dynamic Energy.
Ms. Comstock. I think in the discussions of publically, the matters have been connected up; and I'd like to briefly address these and Mr. Burton had discussed this with some news reporters. I think we can pretty quickly move through this.
Mr. Ballen. If you can tell us how they've been connected up, I think that's fine. I don't know how they've been connected up.
Mr. Taylor. Well, let's see if we can move through this in the interest of Mr. McLarty's time. You want to know whether he knows if Burton responded in 1993 and 1994 at a time when there were articles in the print media about an investigation of payments to members of the Oklahoma Public Service Commission?
Ms. Comstock. Yeah.
Mr. Taylor. You've answered that question.
The Witness. I believe I have.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q You talked to Mr. Burton about it?
A I think he actually raised the matter with me, but, yes, I discussed it with him.
Q Did you authorize him to speak with the press on your behalf?
A Yes.
Q And the statements that he relayed, can you tell us the discussion you had with Mr. Burton?
A I'm sorry repeat your question.
Q The discussion you had with Mr. Burton and what you authorized him to say about the matter?
A I told him I knew nothing about these allegations and to make that clear to the press, which he did so. And I believe in 1993 that the Lums and Dynamic Energy were not part of his discussions with the press or the press stories at all.
Q I want to move into questions regarding Mr. Hubbell. You have known Mr. Hubbell for how long?
A Approximately 30 years.
Q In 1993 when he first joined the administration at any time in the spring of 1993 while he was going through the confirmation process, did you learn of any Rose Law Firm partners coming to Mr. Hubbell to discuss any problems at the firm?
A No, I did not.
Q When did you first learn of any problems at the Rose Law Firm pertaining to Mr. Hubbell?
A I believe shortly before they appeared in the press in 1994.
Q In 1993, were you aware of an individual named Amy Stewart being involved in Mr. Hubbell's confirmation process?
A No, I was not.
Q Do you know Amy Stewart?
A No, I do not.
Q Could you tell us how you learned of Mr. Hubbell's legal problems with the Rose Law Firm?
A I believe I was informed that there was going to be a story in the Washington Post about a billing dispute with Mr. Hubbell from someone in the White House. I don't recall who informed me.
Q You don't recall who in the White House?
A Yes.
Q Do you know if it was somebody on your staff?
A I don't believe it was. But I simply don't know. I can't recall sitting here today who informed me. Someone in the White House told me there was going to be a story appearing about a billing dispute between Mr. Hubbell and the Rose Law Firm partners.
Q Was it somebody just physically in the White House or an employee of the White House?
A I believe it was an employee of the White House. I just simply don't recall who it was.
Q And do you know if it was the President or the First Lady?.
A No.
Q Or it was definitely an employee?
A No, it was a staff member of the White House.
Q Can you recall if it was somebody in the communications or
A I don't recall who it was. I have a recollection it probably came to the press office, but I just can't say sitting here today for certain who notified me.
RPTS BRYAN
DCMN HERZFED
[9:30 a.m.]
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q And what did you do when you were notified?
A I called Mr. Hubbell.
Q And can you tell us about that discussion?
A Yes. I asked him about this matter. It surprised me. He assured me that he was focused on the matter. It was a billing dispute between he and his former partners, and I believe he told me that he felt that it could be resolved amicably and timely. That's how I remember the conversation with Mr. Hubbell.
Q And what did you say to him?
A I told him I hoped that would be the case, as I remember. Something to that effect.
Q And did you have any conversations with anybody at the White House about that after your conversation with Mr. Hubbell?
Mr. Ballen. Excuse me. Could we have a time frame on this conversation?
The Witness. I believe the article appeared around March 1st of 1994, and I think it was a day or two before the article. I think I called him in advance of the article actually appearing.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q Can you describe any subsequent conversations that you had with anybody following that?
A I believe I reported my conversation or related my conversation to Ms. Myers, who was press secretary, and I may have told other staff members in the White House, including members on my staff.
Q And would that have included Mark Middleton?
A It probably would have included Mr. Burton is who I was referring to.
Q And do you know what you told Mr. Burton?
A I think I simply related the conversation to him as I did to you.
Q And did you speak with the President about this?
A I don't recall speaking to the President about it, but I certainly could have.
Q You don't recall at that precise time speaking with the President, or you don't recall at all talking with the President about Mr. Hubbell's legal problems?
A In that time period I don't recall whether I related my telephone conversation with Mr. Hubbell to the President or not. I just simply don't remember whether I did in that time frame.
Q All right. Do you recall if you spoke with the First Lady about that conversation?
A I don't recall my speaking to the First Lady about it. It's possible that I did, but I don't remember that I did.
Q You were aware that Mrs. Clinton had been a partner at the Rose Law Firm with Mr. Hubbell, of course?
A Yes, I was aware of that.
Q And have you ever had any discussions prior to learning of this with the First Lady about any legal problems at the Rose Law Firm with Mr. Hubbell?
A No, I was not aware of any legal problems at all.
Q So you had not talked to any partners at the Rose Law Firm or heard about any accounts from anybody else who relayed information to you?
A No, I had not.
Q Okay. Nobody from Arkansas had called you and given you a heads up before you heard about the news article or anything like that?
A No. I think no, I don't believe I had heard about it prior to being notified by a staff member at the White House.
Q This is the March 2nd Washington Post article about the law firm, about the Rose Law Firm probing Mr. Hubbell. In this article it discusses an internal investigation to be done by the firm in the summer of 1992, and it mentions CRTC investigating these matters, and that the law firm had been subpoenaed by Mr. Fiske. Do you recall discussing any of these particulars with Mr. Hubbell?
A No, I do not.
Q Do you recall on or around March 2nd with the appearance of this article if you were involved in any discussions about what this investigation of Mr. Hubbell was going to include?
A No, I don't believe I had any discussions of that type.
Q With anybody at the White House?
A I don't recall any discussions. My understanding was a billing dispute between the partners, former partners, of Mr. Hubbell's Rose Law Firm and Mr. Hubbell.
Q And so when this article appeared on March 2nd, 1994, and discussed that the firm was considering notifying the CRTC that the law firm had been subpoenaed by Mr. Fiske, you did not discuss anything like that with anybody at the White House?
A I don't recall having discussions of that type in the White House, Ms. Comstock.
Q Were you aware of anyone at the White House being concerned about any of those matters?
A I don't recall those matters being raised with me.
Q Do you know if anybody was working on those matters at the White House?
A I'm not aware that they were.
Q Were you aware of Mr. Ickes working on any of these matters related to Mr. Hubbell?
Mr. Taylor. The problem with the questions, Barbara, is that the time frame of them is not clear. We all understand that the Hubbell issue and the decision about it was an evolving process, and to ask him whether he ever if your question means did he ever have a conversation with anybody about the unfolding Hubbell set of problems, that's one thing. I think he has understanding your questions to refer to this article.
The Witness. Uhhuh.
Ms. Comstock. I'm talking about the March time frame; I mean, from the time you learned of Mr. Hubbell having some legal problems to the time he resigned, if we can contain it in that time initially, if there were
The Witness. Yes, I don't think I understood I'm not clear on your question.
Mr. Ballen. I had understood the question as to referring simply to the March 2nd or thereabouts.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q Why don't we expand. He announced his resignation on March 14th, so I'm not talking about a huge amount of time, but if we could discuss it in that time frame, from the time you first got notified of the article which you have indicated is your first recollection of knowing about this to maybe the time when he resigned, and if you can walk through any conversations you had with people at the White House about matters related to Mr. Hubbell.
A I'm still not perfectly clear.
Mr. Taylor. The question now is
The Witness. I'm sorry.
Mr. Taylor. starting on the first of March, when you first learned about it, take us through your contacts and conversations inside the White House leading up to the resignation.
Mr. Ballen. The announcement of the resignation on March 14th.
Mr. Taylor. On Monday.
Forget the article, forget the article. Just tell her what happened that you are aware of in the White House, the context and conversations which we know occurred leading up to the resignation.
The Witness. The article had appeared on March the 2nd, which I've already discussed with you. I believe there were some subsequent articles that may have come up at our regular staff meetings about current news articles in the newspaper that appeared between this article and the resignation on the 14th. I don't recall that, but it's certainly possible. I spoke with Mr. Kantor on, I believe, Saturday. I believe I talked to Ambassador Kantor about another matter, and during the course of our conversation, Mr. Hubbell's situation came up, and Mr. Kantor related that he had had discussions with Mr. Hubbell, which did not surprise me; I knew they were good friends and had, I believe, worked together on various legal matters. And Mr. Kantor indicated that this matter was a matter he did not think perhaps could be resolved timely and was weighing heavily on Mr. Hubbell, and he felt badly about that, something along those lines, Ms. Comstock.
During that conversation with Mr. Kantor, he said that Mr. Blair, Jim Blair, had spoken with Mr. Hubbell or with Mr. Kantor and shared his less than optimistic view about this situation, and Mr. Kantor expressed personal concern as a friend and colleague of Mr. Hubbell's during the conversation as well, as I remember it.
I then called Mr. Blair, whom I knew, because I was not aware that he had had conversations with Mr. Kantor or Mr. Hubbell. As I remember that telephone conversation, Mr. Blair also had a negative assessment that this situation would resolve in a satisfactory or favorable way, or in a timely way. I believe he said something like, there's acrimony on both sides of this issue, and he too felt badly for Mr. Hubbell.
That then led to the Sunday discussion of this matter, which occurred after a meeting in the White House with the President and the First Lady where we had talked about the organization and staffing of the White House, and as that meeting concluded, someone raised the matter of Mr. Hubbell, and that the possible the possibility of his resigning. I do not recall who raised that matter at the meeting I am talking about on Sunday.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q And who was at that meeting?
A That's what I was just going to say. The President and First Lady were present, as I think I've already noted. Mr. Ickes, who was Deputy Chief of Staff; Ms. Williams, who was Chief of Staff to the First Lady; Mr. David Kendall, the President's personal attorney from Williams & Connolly; and I believe Mr. Bob Barnett was present, who is a partner of Mr. Kendall's.
Q Was Bruce Lindsey at that meeting?
A I don't believe Mr. Lindsey was present at that meeting. It's possible, but I don't believe he was present.
Q Okay. I'm sorry. Continue.
A After the meeting concluded about the staffing and organization of the White House, particularly with a change in White House counsels with Mr. Nussbaum leaving and Mr. Cutler joining the White House, someone raised the Hubbell matter as we were breaking up and suggested this was becoming increasingly a topical matter in the press and might lead to the necessary consideration of whether Mr. Hubbell could continue to serve effectively as Associate Attorney General.
There was a brief discussion about the current situation, and as I remember that conversation, there was not closure reached in terms of Mr. Hubbell's making a decision to resign or being asked to resign, but I think I gathered that the trend line was a negative one, which was consistent with my conversations with Mr. Kantor and Mr. Blair. I believe that is a
Ms. Comstock. I'm sorry. We have had some other people come in the room. Why don't we identify them for the record.
Mr. Ballen. This is Michael Yang, and this is Michael Raphael with the Minority staff.
Mr. Bossir. Tom Bossir, BOSSIR.
Ms. Comstock. An intern with our office.
Nobody else can come in the room. Just so you know, we haven't had that happen yet, too many strays wandering in.
Mr. Ballen. Is there a question pending?
Ms. Comstock. No. I think Mr. McLarty was continuing the narrative of the meeting on Sunday, I guess it would be March 13th.
The Witness. That's correct.
Mr. Taylor. Then I think the question fairly calls for you to take them all the way to the point of the resignation itself.
The Witness. All right.
As I recall, I don't believe I had any further conversations about the matter that day, although I may have, and I believe I was informed the next day, Monday, that Mr. Hubbell had made a decision to resign, and that resignation would be announced Monday effective at some later date. And I believe, Ms. Comstock, that I called Mr. Hubbell I believe, on that day, it may have been the next day, but I believe it was that day, Monday, after the public announcement had been made and expressed my regret that he had reached this decision, but understood his decision and supported it, and thanked him for his service and wished him well.
I believe that's a full recitation of the events.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q Returning to I think we need to describe the Saturday discussion with Mr. Kantor. I guess the Sunday meeting you went through. That would be then Saturday, March 12th, and Sunday, March 13th, and the resignation occurs on Monday, March 14th.
The first article that we discussed was March 2nd, 1994. Do you recall if you had any conversations between March 2nd, 1994, or not I think you testified you heard about this a few days before the article appeared?
A Yes.
Q Between the time of those conversations that you have testified to prior to the first article and that Saturday, the 12th, those conversations with Mr. Kantor, do you recall any conversations you had with anyone at the White House about Mr. Hubbell's situation?
A No, I do not.
Q If I could just put this in context to refresh your recollection, do you recall at or around early March of 1994, I believe it was March 4th, 1994, there were a number of subpoenas to the White House, it was a Thursday or Friday afternoon, for a number of Whitewater matters. Do you recall anything having to do with Mr. Hubbell that came up in the context of receiving subpoenas? And I'm not asking you about the subpoenas themselves, I'm just asking you in light of that happening, if there were discussions at the White House about any matters related to Webster Hubbell?
A No, I don't recall any discussions of that type.
Q And then at that time Mr. Nussbaum also resigned in the wake of those various activities, the subpoenas and a number it was approximately March 4th or 5th also. I'm not connecting that together, I'm just saying at that time, there were a lot of there were a lot of events occurring, to place it in context, with all of these events happening, if that refreshes your recollection in terms of any matters that were discussed pertaining to Mr. Hubbell.
A I don't recall any discussions regarding Mr. Hubbell and the Whitewater subpoenas whatsoever.
Q So you don't recall any discussions about the fact that Mr. Fiske may be looking at Mr. Hubbell also in the context of Mr. Fiske putting out subpoenas; there never was any discussion in that early March time about well, now, they're looking at Mr. Hubbell, too?
A I certainly never I don't believe I heard any discussion of that type. I don't recall any discussion of that type sitting here today.
Q Okay. Were you ever aware prior to Mr. Hubbell resigning of any discussions of a settlement of Mr. Hubbell with the Rose Law Firm?
Mr. Taylor. Well, he has testified that Hubbell told him he thought it could be resolved amicably.
Ms. Comstock. I was just wondering if he was trying to try to make a settlement, or if what he was doing about trying to pay them, you know, and resolve this.
The Witness. No, I heard I don't believe I was aware of any settlement discussions, other than as I was going to testify Mr. Hubbell suggesting to me he thought this matter, a billing dispute matter, could be resolved, I believe he said, in an amicable and a timely fashion. I think that's what I remember.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q So he never said anything to you like, my attorney is trying to settle this with him, and it should be taken care of by X date, or anything like that?
A No, no, I didn't have any knowledge of any settlement discussions, if there were any.
Q Did he ever mention to you his talking to any of the partners at the law firm?
A I don't recall his saying anything of that nature to me; no, I do not.
Q Do you remember anything about there were certain partners who were friendly to him and certain partners who weren't, and how he was trying to work with either side of the dispute?
A No, he did not share any of that type of information or insight with me, nor did I ask him.
Q Did you ever discuss any of these matters with Bill Kennedy, who had also been a partner at the Rose Law Firm?
A No, I don't believe I ever spoke to Mr. Kennedy.
Q At no time between sort of your learning about these articles and Mr. Hubbell's resignation did you ever talk to Mr. Kennedy about this?
A No, I don't believe I ever spoke with Mr. Kennedy about it, to the best of my recollection.
Q Were you ever aware of anybody else at the White House who may have talked to Mr. Kennedy about any knowledge he had about how the Rose Law Firm was going to handle the matters pertaining to Mr. Hubbell?
A No, I can't recall any discussions of that type by anyone else with Mr. Kennedy or their being related to me.
Q If I could return to the Saturday discussion that you said you had with Mr. Kantor. Mr. Kantor told you that Jim Blair spoke with him?
A I believe Mr. Kantor related that he had spoken with Mr. Blair.
Q Did you know who called who?
A No, I do not.
Q Okay.
A It was just my understanding that Mr. Kantor said he and Mr. Blair had spoken, if I recall correctly, and that Mr. Blair had also spoken to Mr. Hubbell. That's as I remember the conversation with Ambassador Kantor.
Q Did Mr. Kantor tell you what Mr. Blair had said to Mr. Hubbell?
A No, I don't believe he went into detail. I don't recall that he did.
Q Did he tell you that Mr. Blair told Mr. Hubbell he thought he should resign?
A I don't recall Mr. Kantor's telling me that.
Q Okay. Did Mr. Kantor tell you anything about Mr. Blair speaking with the Rose Law Firm partners?
A No, I don't believe he mentioned that to me.
Q Now, you said you in turn called Mr. Blair; is that correct?
A That is correct.
Q When you spoke with Mr. Blair, did he ever tell you he had been in touch with people at the Rose Law Firm?
A I don't recall his saying that, and I don't believe that he did. It is possible that he did, but I don't believe he did in our telephone conversations.
Q Were you aware of Mr. Blair being in touch with the firm?
A No, I was not.
Q No one at the White House ever mentioned anything about Jim Blair is in touch with Rose Law Firm partners?
A I didn't know Mr. Blair was involved at all until Ambassador Kantor told me Saturday morning. I believe it was Saturday morning.
Q In this discussion with Mr. Blair, did Mr. Blair tell you he had spoken with the President about Mr. Hubbell?
A I don't remember that he did. It's possible that he did. I don't remember in that telephone conversation Mr. Blair saying that.
Q Did he tell you anything about the President asking him, Mr. Blair, to speak to Mr. Hubbell about resigning?
A I don't recall anyone, Mr. Blair or anyone, relating to me that they had asked Mr. Hubbell or were going to ask or were considering to ask Mr. Hubbell to resign. I don't remember that being an issue.
Q All right. So to your knowledge, I mean do you know if anyone asked Mr. Hubbell to resign?
A To my knowledge, no one did or did ask him to resign. He made that decision on his own.
Q So your understanding was that Mr. Hubbell himself made the decision and nobody had asked him to resign?
A That's my understanding, that Mr. Hubbell reached that decision.
Q And so that nobody your understanding is no one had gone to Mr. Hubbell and told him, the President would like you to do this, or I've spoken with the President, and he would like you to do this?
A I don't recall anyone telling me that they had been asked to discuss that with Mr. Hubbell or they were considering doing that. It's possible that they did, but I don't believe so .
Q I'm showing the witness a document, I guess, from your calendar, EOP 52248, I believe it is. It's cut off on your copy.
A Uhhuh.
Q And the date of it is February 21st. At the bottom of the page it reads, "Webb/Legal," and then it says, number 1, Kennedy, it appears.
A Right.
Q Or actually, maybe you could tell us what it says. If that's your handwriting, you would be better at reading that, if you could?
A It's a diplomatic way of asking me to read my handwriting.
Mr. Ballen. In fact, is it your handwriting would be the first question, sir?
The Witness. I believe it is. I believe it is.
It is on my to do list, and up at the top here it was, one, organization, ORG, that's what that stands for; and then as item number, I believe, 11 on what was a long list here, it has, "Webb/Legal." And then it was, one, Kennedy; two, Bernie; three, HRC attitude; and then by the side of it it has "Webb" noted on the side.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q And can you tell us what you recall this was referring to?
A It's always difficult to recall with certainty notes that you made several years ago on a to do list, but I am relatively certain that what this suggests is a number of staffing organization matters that I was considering at the time, and I believe this notes my wanting Webb's opinion about Mr. Nussbaum and whether or not it was whether or not Mr. Nussbaum should continue as White House legal counsel, whether Mr. Kennedy should continue in the Legal Counsel's Office, what was his judgment about that; and then if Mr. Nussbaum were replaced, how Mrs. Clinton would feel about that, given their friendship; and also if Mr. Kennedy were either replaced or moved to a different position, how Mrs. Clinton would feel about that.
So I think I was asking for Mr. Hubbell's opinion about certain organization and staffing matters of individuals that he knew.
Q And what were the matters related to Mr. Kennedy at that time?
A I think, as I recall it, Mr. Kennedy had worked closely with Mr. Foster, who, of course, had taken his life, and if we had a change in the White House Counsel's Office, how they would feel about retaining some of the staff there, and was it time to make some rather broad changes in the White House Counsel's Office, if, indeed, a change were made.
Q Okay. So the legal reference with Mr. Hubbell has nothing to do with Mr. Hubbell's legal situation then?
A That's absolutely correct.
Q So as of February 21st, 1994, you had no idea about any legal problems related to Mr. Hubbell?
A None whatsoever.
Ms. Comstock. Okay. Let's make that Deposition Exhibit number 1.
[McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM1
was marked for identification.]
The Witness. May we take a break for just a couple of minutes?
Ms. Comstock. Sure.
[Brief recess.]
Mr. Ballen. There are other people in the room. Could we just introduce them again?
Ms. Comstock. Mr. Bossie is also here. I think that's the only addition we have had, and we have had a few exits.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q Other than Mr. Kantor or Mr. Blair, do you know of anyone else who spoke to Mr. Hubbell prior to his resigning?
A I'm sorry.
Q You mentioned the conversations that you knew about that Mr. Kantor and Mr. Blair had with Mr. Hubbell, and then you yourself had a conversation. Was there anybody else that you knew of who spoke to Mr. Hubbell prior to his resigning?
A No, I'm not sure who spoke to Mr. Hubbell prior to his resigning.
Q Okay. Do you know if David Kendall or Bob Barnett talked with him?
A I don't know whether they spoke with him or not.
Q Or Bruce Lindsey?
A I don't know whether Mr. Lindsey talked to Mr. Hubbell or not.
Q Do you know if Skip Rutherford had been in touch with him at all?
A I don't know whether Mr. Rutherford had talked to Webb or not.
Q So there is nobody else that comes to mind that you can think of who spoke to Mr. Hubbell prior to his resignation?
A No, there's not.
Q When you spoke with Mr. Hubbell, did you ever have any discussion with him about what he would do if he left the Justice Department?
A I don't recall whether I did or not. I may have. I don't know whether we covered that subject matter when I talked to him or not.
Mr. Ballen. Could we just have a time frame? Are we still in the March
The Witness. As I think Ms. Comstock is referring to my calling Mr. Hubbell on the 14th or 15th. That's how I took your question.
Ms. Comstock. Yes.
The Witness. Is that right?
Ms. Comstock. Yes.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q And the time frame, when you were having or, you know, initially when you described the initial phone call you had with him where he said it's no problem, so I am assuming that didn't come up at that time, and now after he resigned, did you ever have any conversation?
A It may have come up in the conversation, but I don't remember that it did.
Q But prior to him resigning, you don't recall any discussions with him about what he would do?
A Ms. Comstock, to the best of my memory, I do not believe I spoke to Mr. Hubbell, I certainly don't recall speaking to him, between the time I visited with him on March the 1st, or whatever date it was before the article, and his resigning on the 14th. I don't believe I talked to Mr. Hubbell during that period. It's possible I did and don't remember it, but I don't believe I spoke to him.
Q And in the Sunday meeting that you discussed, I'm showing the witness a copy of your calendar, EOP 52249, and if you could just again, this is your handwriting; is that correct?
A It is.
Q Okay. Could you read for us what the entry that is there says?
A It says, Jim Blair, Kendall/Webb, HRC statement, Maggie.
Q And could you tell us what that refers to?
A I can't tell you with certainty sitting here today what it refers to, but I can, I believe, make a reasonably good surmise or guess.
Q Okay. Could you do that for me?
A I think it contemplates if Mr. Hubbell resigns, that we will need a statement perhaps from Mrs. Clinton about his resignation and maybe other statements as well, and that I'm going to discuss that or assign someone to discuss that with Mr. Blair, Mr. Kendall and Ms. Williams.
Q And was this the time of the meeting on Sunday with the 1 o'clock entry there, if you recall when the meeting was on Sunday?
A The meeting was on Sunday morning, so this was after the meeting.
Q So these are notes that you think you made after the meeting?
A I don't know that I made them after the meeting, Ms. Comstock. This is how I kind of keep my calendar here a bit, so I may have already had these notes, and I may have made it after the meeting. I just simply don't know.
Q Do you know if you made any notes during that meeting on Sunday, the 13th?
A Yes, I did.
Q Okay. Do you know what you did with those notes?
A They are in my files.
Q And did the notes at all refer to Mr. Hubbell?
A They did not.
Q The notes were regarding organization and staffing of the White House?
A And staffing, yes.
Q Do you recall if anyone else at the meeting took notes?
A I don't know whether anyone else at the meeting took notes or not. I don't recall that they did.
Q From your experience at the White House working with Ms. Maggie Williams, did Ms. Williams usually take notes in meetings that you were at with her?
A I honestly don't know.
Q Or Mr. Ickes, did he usually take notes in meetings?
A Mr. Ickes, from time to time I noticed him taking notes at meetings, yes. I don't recall whether he took notes at this meeting or not.
Q Okay. And you had said that as the meeting concluded that Sunday morning, that somebody who you couldn't recall raised the issue of Mr. Hubbell and him resigning. Do you recall at any point during the meeting if you had said anything about what Mr. Hubbell was going to do or helping Mr. Hubbell?
A No, I don't recall that matter coming up in the discussion about Mr. Hubbell at all.
Q In news reports it's been indicated that you do recall something being said to the First Lady; is that correct?
A It was after the meeting was breaking up.
Q And that was the meeting on the 13th?
A That's correct.
Q I don't believe we discussed that yet. Could you tell us about that?
A We have not.
The formal meeting about the staffing and organization had concluded. The subject about Mr. Hubbell had been raised. We concluded that discussion.
Q So the discussion about Mr. Hubbell came up within the meeting of generally of all the people?
A I believe most of the participants were still there. It's possible one or two had left, had departed.
Q Okay. And that was the discussion of him resigning?
A The possibility of his resigning.
Q And your understanding of that was that there hadn't been a final decision yet?
A As I remember it sitting here today, there was not closure reached at this meeting.
Q Do you recall anything the President said in the meeting about Mr. Hubbell?
A As I remember it, the President listened to the discussion. I don't recall his saying anything. He may have, but I don't recall his making any comments during this discussion about Mr. Hubbell.
Q Do you recall if the First Lady said anything in that discussion?
A I recall her listening as well, and I don't recall her making any comments. She may have, but I don't recall any remarks that she made.
Q Can you generally recall who it was that was making, sort of narrowing I mean, it is a small group of people who was sort of generally making the comments about Mr. Hubbell?
Mr. Taylor. Well, you have already asked him that, Ms. Comstock, the first time around.
Ms. Comstock. I know. I'm just trying to somebody
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q Was it a male or a female?
A I don't recall who raised the topic of Mr. Hubbell, and I don't recall the President or First Lady making comments, although they may have. I have a vague recollection of Mr. Ickes making comments, but I don't recall I can't attribute what he said to him, and others may have spoken, including myself. I just don't remember.
Q So that's entirely what you remember of the account of him resigning; that's as much as you can remember at this time?
Mr. Ballen. He has already testified to that three times now.
The Witness. I think so, yes.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q And then could you go into the matters that you raised with the First Lady?
A As the meeting was breaking up, I spoke to the First Lady as I was leaving and related to her that we would try to be supportive of Webb in a difficult period. That's, as I recall, my comment to her. I'm not sure that's a direct quote, but it was something to that effect.
Q And what did the First Lady say to you?
A She acknowledged my comment and said, Mack, thank you very much.
Q And that's the entire conversation?
A It was that type of exchange. She made
Mr. Taylor. The question is, was that the entire conversation?
The Witness. Yes. Well, let me say I don't remember exactly what was said, but my memory is she acknowledged my comment and said, Mack something to the effect, Mack, thank you very much. She may have said something like, I appreciate that, and that was the entire exchange, and I departed.
Ms. Comstock. Okay.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q When you indicated that you were going to try and help Mr. Hubbell, what did you have in mind when you said that?
Mr. Ballen. Excuse me. That wasn't his testimony. I believe his testimony was that he would
Mr. Kanjorski. Is it okay if I bring my staff?
Ms. Comstock. Could we go off the record for a minute?
[Discussion off the record.]
Ms. Comstock. Congressman Kanjorski is present, and at this time would you like to ask questions, Mr. Kanjorski?
Mr. Kanjorski. Since I just came in, I will defer to you. Later on, if I may, yes.
Ms. Comstock. Okay.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q We'll just begin again from the question.
This conversation you had with the First Lady about Mr. Hubbell, again you said something to the effect of you wanted to you were going to be supportive of Mr. Hubbell; is that the gist of it?
A Something to that effect.
Q And what did you have in mind when you said that?
A I think it was just simply a human expression of caring about a friend and a colleague, and I don't think I had any developed thoughts in my head other than not to abandon a friend who was facing a difficult period.
Ms. Comstock. I want to go ahead and make this March 13th, 1994 calendar entry of Mr. Hubbell Deposition Exhibit Number 2.
[McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM2
was marked for identification.]
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q I'm showing you a copy of notes we received from the White House, EOP 20328.
Is this your handwriting, Mr. McLarty?
A It is.
Mr. Ballen. Excuse me. Could we have an extra copy for Mr. Kanjorski?
Ms. Comstock. Of course.
Mr. Ballen. Thank you.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q And could you read those notes for us, if you could?
A Yes, I can, or I will try to. It says, base, Ron Perelman, dash, HI; Truman Arnold; B. Rapoport/others; consulting arrangements; law firm's reluctant to touch him; Mickey to help; Vernon, two checks, which means ditto, to help; indemnity agreement; Christine; and it has P 1 week, which it means pending 1 week.
Q Pending 1 week?
A Pending 1 week, yes.
Q And what did the pending 1 week mean?
A A tickle file that this note would come back up in 1 week.
Q Okay. And could you walk us through what these notes mean?
Mr. Ballen. Have we established, maybe I just didn't hear, a date for these notes?
Mr. Taylor. No.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q Well, if you could tell us if you recall when you made these notes?
A I don't know when I made these notes. There's not a date on these notes.
Q Do you recall if they were at or around the time of when Mr. Hubbell resigned?
A I believe they were after he had resigned. I don't know what time frame these might have been.
Q Do you generally recall if it was in the spring of 1994?
A I believe that's quite likely.
Q Okay. And if you could just tell us to the best of your recollection what you meant in your notes here?
A Well, these are notes that I made, and it's hard sitting here today to recall not only when I made them, but precisely what I meant by them, so I will try to be responsive to your question with that caveat or context. And I don't know whether they reflect a conversation I was having with someone or reflect a quick jotting down of my thoughts about Mr. Hubbell and his transition to the private sector, but that's to me, I believe, what they relate to. And they suggest to me that, one, "Law firm's reluctant to touch him," that the transition to me is going to be a difficult one, as I thought it would be.
Q And why did you believe that law firms would be reluctant to touch him?
A I believe that had been related to me by someone; whether it be Mr. Burton or others, I had been told that.
Q Do you recall conversations you had with Mr. Burton about Mr. Hubbell's employment in the spring of 1994 time period?
A Yes, I do.
Q Could you tell us what those conversations were?
A Mr. Burton knew Mr. Hubbell, as well as of course I knew him, and we discussed this situation, which was a sad and disappointing one, on a couple of occasions, including Mr. Hubbell's transition to the private sector, and I believe Mr. Burton, as I remember it, felt as I did that it would be a difficult period for Mr. Hubbell and his family.
Q But do you know how Mr. Burton may have learned that law firms weren't going to were going to be reluctant to hire Mr. Hubbell?
A We discussed the possibility of the Jones Day law firm, which Mr. Burton had been associated with prior to his service in the White House, and the Jones Day firm had also done work for Arkla when I was chairman of Arkla, as a possibility, and our mutual friend, Mr. Brad Keithley, who had worked with me at Arkla as our general counsel and now was a partner at Jones Day, and the possibility that we might suggest to them that Mr. Hubbell, we felt, was a fine individual and what were their thoughts about his possibly doing some work with them.
Ms. Comstock, I can't remember whether I asked Mr. Burton to call Mr. Keithley or he did it on his own. At any rate, I think he talked to Mr. Keithley, whom he knew quite well, as I did, and I believe that was Mr. Keithley's feedback or assessment, that with this pending matter with the Rose Law Firm partners, he thought it would be difficult for Mr. Hubbell to join a traditional major law firm.
Q And when you heard that, did that give you cause to, you know, review the matter and think, you know because I think the in the news articles they had indicated that all 28 partners of the Rose Law Firm had taken this action against Mr. Hubbell. Did that cause you to reassess your evaluation of the situation at that time?
A No, it did not.
Q Okay. If you could continue with describing the notes then.
A Along those lines I had also had an occasion to visit with Vernon Jordan, which I did regularly during my tenure in the White House as Chief of Staff, and we had discussed the Hubbell matter. Mr. Jordan knew Mr. Hubbell as I did, and I believe Mr. Jordan also had related he thought it would be difficult for Mr. Hubbell to join a traditional law firm, and it may be that comment came from him. I'm just not sure one or the other, but that was the understanding or emphasis that I believe this refers to.
Q Was there any attempt to ask Mr. Jordan if Mr. Hubbell could join that law firm?
A No. I don't recall asking
Q Mr. Jordan's law firm?
A I don't recall asking Mr. Jordan to consider that.
Mr. Ballen. I'm sorry, to consider what, sir?
The Witness. Mr. Hubbell joining Mr. Jordan's law firm. I don't think I raised that issue with Mr. Jordan.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q Okay. And why don't we go then to the other individuals that are on here.
A All right. Again, I'm not certain exactly when or how I made these notes. I believe they are actually on the back of a note where I was handed a phone message that Mr. Jordan was holding for me on the phone. I believe that's the case. So they could reflect some of my visit with him, but I'm not sure that is the case. They may have been made I just used that note to make some notes later on. I'm just not sure when I made them.
At any rate, I think "Mr. Perelman" relates to Ron Perelman, a successful financier in New York, and I can't recall with certainty, Ms. Comstock, but I believe in my conversation with Mr. Jordan, I believe he related that he was empathetic with Mr. Hubbell's situation and was he, too, was trying to be supportive of Mr. Hubbell in finding some opportunities as he left government service. And I believe he mentioned Mr. Perelman to me.
Q Mr. Jordan mentioned Mr. Perelman?
A I believe he did, but I can't say that with certainty, Ms. Comstock, but I believe that's the case.
Q Just to clarify, we have received another document from the White House, which is 20327, which has, Vernon Jordan for you and Harold on line 33.
Is that what you're referring to when you said this might be on the back of something?
A That's, I believe, correct.
Mr. Ballen. Could we, the Minority and Mr. Kanjorski, have a copy of that?
Ms. Comstock. Yes.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q It solves one mystery for us on what that note was.
Could you identify whose handwriting that is on that note?
A That is my administrative assistant Patti McHugh's handwriting, I believe.
Q So you believe that this message on 327 was the message received when you wrote this; what is 20328 was on the back of that note?
A Ms. Comstock, I believe that's right.
Q Okay. What did you mean by when it says, base, Ron Perelman?
A I'm not sure what "base" means. I don't know whether that refers to a base salary or a base company; I'm not certain what that means. It may not mean either. Sitting here today, it's hard to know what the word means on a scribbled piece of paper.
Q When it says, dash, HI, was that something that Harold Ickes had brought up in the conversation with or maybe we can establish that. Was Mr. Ickes also on the line with you with Vernon Jordan, if you recall?
A I don't recall that he was. I can't say for certain he wasn't, but I don't recall that he was.
There's a couple ways you can read this note. It's impossible to reconstruct sitting here today. It's got, "Vernon Jordan for you," you could read it, and Harold is holding on another line. It could also mean, Vernon Jordan for you and Harold on line 33. I just simply don't remember.
I do have a recollection of talking to Mr. Jordan about Mr. Hubbell and his resignation and Mr. Jordan having basically similar feelings to me that he regretted it very much for a person he liked and had a regard for.
Q And you're aware that Mr. Jordan then had some type of business relationship or connections with Ron Perelman?
A No, I don't recall that I was aware of that. It is certainly possible that Mr. Jordan, in our discussion, related that, and I have since learned that from public press accounts, I think, but I can't say sitting here today that these notes, as I tried to say earlier, or testify earlier, that these notes reflect my conversation with Mr. Jordan. They may. It's just very hard sitting here today to know whether they reflect my conversation with him, which they may well, but it also could mean I just kept this piece of paper, which I do from time to time in just my daily activities, and then wrote some notes that were not reflective of my direct conversation with Mr. Jordan. I just simply don't know.
Q And do you know the reference to Truman Arnold here how that came up?
A I think by the time I wrote these notes, of course they don't have a date on them, I believe I had either talked to Mr. Arnold or was contemplating talking to Mr. Arnold about the possibility of his being supportive of Mr. Hubbell during this period, and I think that's what that refers to.
Q And then the "Rapoport," is that Bernard Rapoport?
A Yes, I believe that's correct.
Q And could you tell us about Mr. Rapoport?
Mr. Ballen. I'm sorry, I didn't hear the question.
Mr. Taylor. Tell us about Mr. Rapoport.
The Witness. I believe this reference suggests that either it suggests that Mr. Rapoport might be someone who might have an interest in being supportive of Mr. Hubbell and having some employment opportunities for him. I believe that's what that reference means.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q And why do you think Mr. Rapoport would be supportive of Mr. Hubbell?
A I knew Mr. Rapoport knew Mr. Hubbell favorably. He is a very generous person. My assessment is he is a very generous person in nature and in spirit, and he had a very large and successful insurance company in Waco, Texas. So for those reasons, I thought he might be receptive to having employment opportunities for Mr. Hubbell.
Q Were you aware of him also being a large donor to the DNC?
A I was aware he was very supportive of President Clinton.
Q And are you aware of Truman Arnold, I think we previously discussed, also being a fundraiser for the President?
A I knew Mr. Arnold had been involved in support of the President, including fundraising, and had also, of course, been supportive of the President for close to 20 years.
RPTS JACKSON
DCMN WASSERMAN
[10:30 a.m.]
Q And the reference here is consulting arrangements?
A Yes.
Q Could you tell us what you meant there?
A Ms. Comstock, I believe at some point perhaps Mr. Hubbell had mentioned me at some point. It may be my own notation, I'm not sure. Let me answer it this way, to be as accurate as I can be without speculating: That instead of pure legal work, that there might be consulting opportunities or arrangements for Mr. Hubbell. I think that's what that refers to.
Q And do you have any idea what type of work Mr. Hubbell would be doing?
A I became aware at some point that Mr. Hubbell had done considerable work in the environmental area in his prior law practice, so it seemed to be a possibility you could have a consulting arrangement or something of that nature. But I think this is just a notation that there might be consulting arrangements that would be beneficial to the client and be appropriate for Mr. Hubbell. I think that's what that refers to.
Q And then when you wrote "Mickey to help"?
A It is a notation, I think, that Mr. Kantor I believe would be supportive of Mr. Hubbell. I believe that's what that means.
Q And what did you mean? How did you think he was going to help?
A I don't know my exact connotation, but I think it suggests that I think Mr. Kantor would be supportive of Mr. Hubbell in his trying to reestablish himself in the private sector, whether it is being a reference or discussing possible opportunities for Mr. Hubbell, as someone I knew was a good friend of Mr. Hubbell and had very high regard for him.
Q You had discussed with Mr. Kantor you told us about the discussion you had with Mr. Hubbell resigning. But did you have discussions with Mr. Kantor about what kind of work Mr. Hubbell would do?
A I don't recall any discussions with Mr. Kantor at all about Mr. Hubbell's future employment. I don't recall having any discussions with him.
Q So when you wrote
Mr. Taylor. Before you ask the next question, let me confer.
[Witness confers with counsel.]
Mr. Taylor. I'm sorry. Thank you.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q When you made these notes, do you know if you if you thought that Mr. Kantor was going to help him with work, find work?
A I can't say, sitting here today, the precise meaning of this. It could have been, as I have said earlier
Mr. Ballen. Well, sir, no one wants you to speculate. I mean, if you know the answer, you recall it, then let's hear it. Otherwise, counsel admonished you not to speculate.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q We're also asking you to give us your best recollection of how you read these things, also.
A Well, I can't say with certainty. It perhaps was something Mr. Jordan said. As I said earlier, it could reflect what he said to me. It would not have surprised me.
Q And then you recall, independent of this you recall when you had discussion with Mr. Jordan, of Mr. Jordan saying that he was going to help Mr. Hubbell?
A I have a recollection that Mr. Jordan was empathic, as I was, with Mr. Hubbell's situation, and was going to try to be supportive of Webb during this period. I think I recall his expressing a similar attitude that I had.
Q And other than Ron Perelman, do you recall anybody else that Mr. Jordan may have raised?
A I don't recall his raising anyone with certainty, sitting here today, Ms. Comstock; and I think I commented or testified to that earlier. It is possible Mr. Jordan mentioned Mr. Perelman, but I can't say it with certainty. And I don't recall anyone else that he mentioned.
Q And do you know, again, since you mentioned the "H.I." there, do you know if Harold Ickes knows Ron Perelman or had a relationship with Ron Pearlman in any way?
A I don't recall
Mr. Ballen. Do you know whether or not "H.I." refers to Harold Ickes? Not speculating, but do you have an independent recollection?
The Witness. No, I don't have an independent recollection.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q Do you know if when you took notes I know Mr. Ickes often puts "H.I." on his. Do you know how you refer to Mr. Ickes when you took notes?
A From time to time I do refer to him as "H.I."
Q And in the last sentence there on the notes that again says
A Indemnity agreement.
Q And could you tell us if you recall anything about that? I don't recall what that notation means, sitting here today.
Q And Christine, do you know if that was Christine Varney?.
A I don't know, sitting here today, who I'm referring to there. It may mean Ms. Varney?, but I can't say that with certainty.
Q And so you have no knowledge who you may have been talking with about an indemnity agreement. Was it an indemnity agreement regarding Mr. Hubbell?
A I just can't say with certainty. It could have certainly meant that, but I don't know.
Q So you cannot enlighten us in any way about what you meant in those notes?
A Not on this particular entry.
Ms. Comstock. I'd like to make that Deposition Exhibit No. 3. Actually 220327 and 20328 together I'll make Deposition Exhibit No. 3.
[McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM3
was marked for identification.]
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q I'm showing the witness another calendar entry from his calendar which is EOP 20250, and the date is cut off of the copy that we've received.
A Uhhuh.
Q But I believe from the records in their entirety that this is March 17th, 1994. Again, is that your handwriting on that?
A It is.
Q And could you tell us what that says?
A It says "Called Truman Arnold, dash, Webb."
Q And does that refresh your recollection as to your discussions that you had with Truman Arnold?
Mr. Taylor. Ms. Comstock, he hasn't said his recollection is exhausted. He can't refresh his recollection if he hasn't said that.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q Why don't you go into the conversations you had with Truman Arnold about Mr. Hubbell?
A I called Mr. Arnold and asked him or discussed with him the situation regarding Mr. Hubbell. He knew Mr. Hubbell. I was aware he knew Mr. Hubbell. And as I recall, I told Truman that I thought the transition would be a difficult one. He agreed, and I asked him to give consideration to any opportunities that he thought might be supportive of Webb in this period. He said he would do that.
Q Do you have any understanding of what type of opportunities those would be?
A No. We didn't discuss the details. I knew Mr. Arnold had a lot of business enterprises that he was establishing and building, but we did not discuss any specifics.
Q And then, to your knowledge, what happened next that you know about Mr. Arnold and Mr. Hubbell?
A Mr. Arnold told me he would give that some thought, and I believe he said he would get back to me, which I believe he did.
Q And what did he tell you?
A I believe the next call I received from Mr. Arnold, or my office did, and I believe I talked to him personally but I'm not certain of that, he requested some additional information regarding Mr. Hubbell and his background, his experience, his work experience, and asked that I provide that or get that information for him. I told him I would do so.
Q Okay. Do you know if during that time, that time frame, if you also called Mr. Arnold from your home to discuss these matters with him, or were these just office calls that you had?
A I don't know where I placed the calls. As you know, in any responsibility you have activities you're trying to get completed, call lists completed, and they sometimes run together between office and home.
Q Do you recall with any particular clarity any phone calls you may have had at home with Mr. Arnold, as opposed to office calls you had with him?
A I don't recall where I talked to Mr. Arnold, whether it was from my office or home or some other place as we were traveling. I just simply don't remember where I was when I talked to him.
Q And he asked about more information about Mr. Hubbell, and did you then send him any more information?
A I did.
Ms. Comstock. Let me make this Deposition Exhibit
No. 4.
[McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM4
was marked for identification.]
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q This is EOP 20325 through 26, which was a letter to you from Mr. Hubbell which reads, "Dear Mack: At your request, I am enclosing my bio. As we discussed on the phone. I will be leaving Justice on Friday, April 8th."
And then the top of it has handwriting which I believe is your secretary, Patti McHugh.
A That is correct.
Q Which is "Bill Burton. (Mack also sent to Truman Arnold.)" Was that the information that you recall sending to Mr. Arnold or being requested by Mr. Arnold?
A Yes, it is.
Q And could you just tell us how, when Mr. Arnold asked you for information, what you did, and get us to the point of this document?
A I believe I called Mr. Hubbell and asked him to send some information of the type that Mr. Arnold had requested, and I believe this is what he sent in response to our telephone conversation.
Q Do you recall if you told Mr. Hubbell about your conversation with Mr. Arnold?
A No, I do not.
Q But was it did you relate to him that Mr. Arnold may be interested in hiring him in some capacity and that you had talked to him about that?
A I just simply don't remember that conversation with Mr. Hubbell.
Q When Mr. Hubbell was sending over his bio, was there
did he have an understanding of what you were going to be using it for?
A I think it is likely that I did tell him that I had discussed this with Mr. Arnold, but I just simply don't remember the conversation, but I think it was like little. I do remember Mr. Arnold asking for additional information. I remember that telephone conversation.
Q And then there's the notation for Bill Burton for this. Do you know why he is on here?
A Ms. McHugh routed this to Mr. Burton as my staff director.
Q Do you recall any discussions you had with Mr. Burton about this?
Mr. Taylor. What's "this"?
Ms. Comstock. About Truman Arnold and Mr. Hubbell, about this letter, general matters relating to Truman Arnold and Mr. Hubbell.
Mr. Taylor. Well, that's three things. Can you ask him about a category that you want to be responsive?
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q Do you recall speaking with Mr. Burton about this letter?
A No, I do not.
Q Do you recall generally speaking to Mr. Burton about Mr. Arnold being possibly interested in hiring Mr. Hubbell?
A I believe Mr. Burton was aware of that. I don't recall a specific conversation with him about it, although I certainly may have had one.
Q And can you tell us what happened next, to your knowledge?
A I believe at some point Mr. Arnold called me back and said that he thought there were some areas that Mr. Hubbell could be helpful to him and his enterprises, and that he thought he was going to be able to work out some type of arrangement with Mr. Hubbell.
Q And did you learn in fact that he did at some time?
A At some point Mr. Arnold may have confirmed that with me, and I think he did.
Q Do you recall what he said?
A At some point I think Mr. Arnold told me he thought Mr. Hubbell was doing a good job for him. I think that's when I really learned that the actual agreement had been consummated.
Q Do you recall what he said Mr. Hubbell was doing for him?
A No, I do not. I think it was really just a statement, something like "Webb's doing a great job."
Q But you have no understanding of what the job entailed?
A No, I don't remember him discussing that in any detail, and I don't believe that he did.
Q Did Mr. Hubbell ever tell you anything about what he was doing for Mr. Arnold?
A No, I don't believe he has ever related that.
Q Did Mr. Hubbell ever tell you about his being hired by Mr. Arnold?
A No, I don't believe he did.
Q So you never had any discussions with Mr. Hubbell about him being hired by Mr. Arnold?
A I don't recall that I did.
Q So other than let me make it clear. When Mr. Hubbell sent over his bio, did he do you recall if he knew that it was going to Mr. Arnold, or was this just generally your getting the bio for anybody who might be interested in it?
A Ms. Comstock, I believe that I requested the bio from Mr. Hubbell for Mr. Arnold and told him that, and told him Truman was considering discussing with him certain employment possibilities. And I think that is what that relates to. I can't say, sitting here today, that I independently remember that telephone conversation with Mr. Hubbell, but I think that is highly likely what was the sequence of events.
Q And do you recall Mr. Hubbell ever thanking you or saying anything to you about Mr. Arnold?
A I just simply don't remember that he did.
Ms. Comstock. I'll make this Deposition Exhibit
No. 5.
[McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM5
was marked for identification.]
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q Are you aware of any other efforts by Mr. Arnold to help Mr. Hubbell get other contracts with people?
A Mr. Arnold may have told me in one of our conversations that he was perhaps going to approach others about the possibility of seeing if they had any opportunities for Webb. I think he may have mentioned that to me.
Q Do you recall who the others were?
A I don't know that he related specific individuals. He may have. I don't recall his doing so.
Q Do you have any knowledge of him contacting Bernard Rapoport?
A I don't believe Mr. Arnold told me that he either had or told me he was going to. It is possible that he did, but I don't believe so. He may have suggested he was giving some thought to contacting some individuals and may have even mentioned them by name. I don't remember that he did.
Q Okay. And you know Mr. Rapoport; is that correct?
A I do.
Q Did you ever have any conversations yourself with Mr. Rapoport about his hiring Mr. Hubbell?
A I don't believe I ever talked with Mr. Rapoport about Mr. Hubbell.
Q At all about his employment?
A About his employment. That's what I was talking about. I want to be sure I understood the question. No, to the very best of my memory and knowledge, I never talked with Mr. Rapoport about employment with Mr. Hubbell.
Q Do you know Wayne Reaud?
A Yes, I am acquainted with Mr. Reaud.
Q Tell us how long you've known him.
A I believe I've known him for 4 or 5 years.
Q And how did you come to know him?
A I believe Mr. Arnold introduced me to Mr. Reaud.
Q And do you have any knowledge of Mr. Reaud hiring Mr. Hubbell?
A No. I believe I learned that at some later point in time, perhaps even through the public press. Again, it is possible Mr. Arnold mentioned Mr. Reaud to me, but I don't believe that he did.
Q And again, for any of Mr. Rapoport or Mr. Reaud or others who you may have heard of, did you have any a sense of what Mr. Hubbell was doing for them?
A No, I no, I do not.
Q I think you had indicated that had you thought Mr. Arnold thought Mr. Hubbell was doing a good job, is about what you can recall.
A I think I recall his making a statement of that type to me at some later period after the March period.
Q Would you be surprised to learn that Mr. Arnold really hasn't had any work that he had Mr. Hubbell doing?
A I don't know anything about what Mr. Hubbell did, nor Mr. Arnold.
Q If, in fact, Mr. Hubbell hadn't done any actual work for Mr. Arnold, would that surprise you?
Mr. Ballen. I'm going to object. That's a speculative question, calls for a hypothetical. The witness has already testified he didn't know the nature of the work that was being done.
Mr. Taylor. You can answer the question.
The Witness. I just simply don't know anything about the employment, and you're really I just simply don't know anything about what Mr. Hubbell did or did not do for Mr. Arnold.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q Would any of these, Mr. Arnold or any of these other people do you recall whether you ever discussed any type of indemnity agreement with them at all?
A No, I don't believe I did.
Q Relating to Mr. Hubbell of course.
A Yes, I understood your question. No, I don't believe I did.
Q This is another calendar entry. Again, this is your handwriting; is that correct?
A It is.
Q This calendar is EOP 20252. I'm not sure if it is cut off, but I believe the date on this which again is cut off but we've received these in sequence I believe the date is March 28th. Does that say "Hubbell, Vernon, Truman" there?
A It does.
Q Do you recall if that was a meeting that you had with Mr. Hubbell and Mr. Jordan and Truman Arnold?
A No, I don't believe I've ever had a meeting with Mr. Hubbell, Mr. Jordan and Mr. Arnold together.
Q Do you know what that entry refers to?
A I believe it is a notation to talk to Mr. Jordan and Mr. Arnold about Mr. Hubbell.
Q Okay.
[Mr. Schumann enters room].
Ms. Comstock. I will have that marked as Deposition Exhibit No. 6.
[McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM6
was marked for identification.]
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q Can you just generally tell us, aside from Mr. Arnold and these others that you may have heard about that Mr. Hubbell spoke to, are there other people that you knew about who were going to hire Mr. Hubbell in the springsummer of '94?
A I don't think I knew anyone who was going to hire Mr. Hubbell, Ms. Comstock, other than Mr. Arnold told me at some point that he thought he could use Webb in some of his activities. To the best of my memory, that is the only employment opportunity that I recall knowing about that Mr. Hubbell was undertaking.
As I have testified before, it is possible that Mr. Arnold mentioned some other people he might be contacting, either generically or by name. I don't recall his doing that, but he may have mentioned that, but I don't know when I learned that they had some type of agreement with Mr. Hubbell. I think it was sometime later, perhaps even from public notice.
Q In the spring and summer of 1994, can you generally recall how often you were in touch with Mr. Hubbell in the months after he left the Justice Department?
A No, I can't I can't recall how many times. I perhaps talked to him once or twice but I don't recall these times.
Q Just once or twice in a matter of months?
A Yes, I believe that's correct.
Q So were you not in frequent contact with him during that time?
A No, I was not.
Q So it wasn't a once a week call or checking in, "How are you doing?"
A No.
Q You just had a few isolated conversations with him?
A If that.
Q Did you have any occasion to see him on social occasions with groups of people in that time frame?
A I don't recall that Donna and I saw him at social occasions. It is possible. I recall one instance where we saw Mrs. Hubbell.
Q And when was that?
A Oh, it was some months after Mr. Hubbell's resignation, and we happened to see her at a restaurant and had a brief exchange with her.
Q So did you go to any Mr. Hubbell resigned on April 8th. Did you go to any parties or things that people had when he resigned or events they had for him at that time?
A No, I don't recall that I did.
Q And do you recall any events that Truman Arnold had that you attended that Mr. Hubbell was at?
A I don't believe I attended any events that Mr. Arnold had, either on behalf of Mr. Hubbell or where Mr. Hubbell was. It's possible I did, but I don't recall them.
Q Do you recall being invited to some that you were not able to attend?
A I may well have been invited.
Q I want to go through a few of Mr. Hubbell's other employers and establish your knowledge or lack thereof of his employers.
Do you know anything about Mr. Hubbell doing any work for the Lippo Group?
A I do now.
Q When did you first learn about it?
A I believe I read about it in the public press sometime probably in the last year. I don't recall the specific time.
Q So prior to press accounts of Mr. Hubbell working with the Lippo Group, you had no knowledge of that?
A Yes, I don't believe I had any knowledge of that.
Mr. Taylor. That is the question? You don't need to tell her about press accounts at this point.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q Do you know the Riadys?
A I do.
Q Would you tell us how you know them?
A I met James Riady and his wife, I believe in the late '70s, at a dinner party in their honor in Arkansas.
Q And how often would you see Mr. Riady, James Riady?
A During that period, Ms. Comstock?
Q Well, what your relationship is or social relationship is, how you would characterize it.
A I believe that's the only time that we saw Mr. Riady during the period that he lived in Arkansas, was on that one occasion.
Q And did you have any occasion to meet with Mr. Riady in the White House at any time in 1993?
A Yes, I did.
Q Could you describe those meetings?
A I believe I had an occasion to meet with Mr. Riady and, I believe, the governor of Jakarta, Indonesia, that had a sister city relationship either with Little Rock or with Arkansas, and we had, I think, a 15minute visit sometime during 1993.
Q Was this a meeting that Charlie Trie had worked to set up, do you recall?
A No, I don't believe so.
Q Other than that meeting, do you recall any other?
A I believe I had lunch with Mr. Riady and Mr. Giroir and Mr. Middleton sometime later that year in the White House Mess.
Q Do you recall how that came about?
A I believe Mr. Giroir requested that meeting.
Q Does Mr. Giroir do work for the Riadys or the Lippo Group?
Mr. Ballen. Does he now or did he at the time?
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q Do you have knowledge if he does, and if so, when?
A I believe I have read public press accounts that he does. I'm sorry, Mr. Taylor. When we had the luncheon, I don't remember Mr. Giroir saying he worked for the Lippo Group or my asking. I don't think I gave that matter any thought.
Q Do you recall why were these people together or how they came to be together at the White House meeting with you?
A I knew Mr. Giroir had known Mr. Riady from his time in Arkansas and they were acquainted with each other in that way. And the purpose of the luncheon, as I understood it, was to encourage outreach development with the Asian Pacific region, which was consistent with the President's trade agenda.
Q And Mr. Giroir had Asian business?
A I don't know whether he did or not.
Q And do you have an understanding that Mr. Riady did have business in Asia?
A Yes. My understanding was that he and his family had substantial business interests throughout the world, but certainly in Asia.
Q In 1992, were you aware of the Riadys being contributors to the ClintonGore campaign?
A I don't believe that I was.
Q Were you aware of them being large contributors to the DNC?
A No, I was not.
Q So you had no knowledge about them giving large contributions to State parties in 1992?
A No, I don't believe that I was.
Q You never heard anything about that in the course of the '92 campaign?
A No, I did not.
Q And were there any other meetings that you had with the Riadys while you've been at the White House?
A Let me think just for a moment. I believe I had seen Mr. Riady the ASEAN business group meeting that I spoke to in 1995 or 1996. I believe he was in attendance. It was a relatively large gathering, a hundred people or more.
Q Is that ASEAN, is that how that's spelled?
A ASEAN, that's right. And then I saw Mr. Riady, I believe, at the APEC Conference in Seattle in 1993, which the United States hosted and I attended.
Q Do you recall meeting with him at that '93 conference?
A No. I recall seeing him at that conference. There were a number of business leaders, both U.S. and from the Asian Pacific region, there. And I believe Mr. Riady was in attendance. I can't recall any other meetings, Ms. Comstock. I believe you asked me about meetings in the White House. I believe that's what you said, and I don't recall any others. There may have been others but I don't believe there were.
Q Do you recall if you ever met with Mr. Riady in Jakarta, on the APAC trip to Jakarta in November of '94?
A I did not attend the APAC meeting in Jakarta.
Q Do you have any knowledge of the President meeting with Mr. Riady in November of '94 on that APAC trip?
A I believe I learned he had seen Mr. Riady when he was there and I believe that was reported in the press.
Q Do you recall if you knew before it was reported in the press?
A I don't believe so.
Q Why don't I return to Lippo and Mr. Hubbell.
So you had no knowledge of Lippo hiring Mr. Hubbell at any time?
A No, not during this time period, not until a much later time period.
Q And that was from press account itself; is that correct?
A Yes, I believe that's right.
Q And during, as we were discussing the employers, the time frame between April 8th when he leaves, or say March whether he decides he is going to leave and Mr. Hubbell is trying to find out what kind of work he is going to do, and then his plea was on December 6, 1994, so if we could look at that time frame in these questions.
Did you have any knowledge of him making any foreign trips in that time frame?
A No, I was not I did not have any knowledge.
Q You never heard of anyone at the White House talking about where he was, his traveling or anything like that?
A In 1994, I believe that's right, maybe 1995, there was discussion about an Arkansas group traveling to the APAC meeting in Indonesia, and I believe Mr. Hubbell was among that group that was considering going. Whether he ended up going, I honestly don't know. That would have been the only knowledge I would have had of any foreign travel on his part.
Q Were you aware of the Riadys' meeting with Mark Middleton frequently or being waved into the White House by Mr. Middleton?
A I was aware that Mr. Middleton saw the Riadys from time to time or Mr. James Riady from time to time.
Q And what was your understanding of those meetings?
A Mr. Middleton served as a liaison person for me, and from time to time had outreach to certain business leaders and, in that context I think I was aware from time to time that he saw Mr. Riady.
Q Did Mr. Middleton ever tell you about any work Mr. Hubbell was doing for the Riadys?
A No, he did not.
Q You're aware that Mr. Middleton has taken the Fifth Amendment in this investigation?
A I have read some press accounts. I don't know what position he has taken or not taken, other than just what I read in the press. I don't know the status of that, I guess is the correct status or answer.
Q Do you have any knowledge of anything you know of that Mr. Middleton did at the White House that would be incriminating of Mr. Middleton?
A No, I don't.
Mr. Ballen. I'm going to object to that question. I don't think it is fair to ask the question of a witness about whether someone else may be asserting their constitutional rights or not. But he may answer the question.
Ms. Comstock. Well, that wasn't the question.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q I'm going to move through some of the other employers.
So there is no other knowledge you have of Mr. Hubbell doing any work with Riady or the Lippo Group?
A No.
Mr. Ballen. I'm going to object. That's the third time, for the record, that same question has been asked.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q And Pacific Telesis, did you have any knowledge of Mr. Hubbell doing any work for Pacific Telesis?
A No, I don't believe that I did.
Q Do you know Jack Williams?
A I do.
Q How do you know Mr. Williams?
A Mr. Williams is from Texarkana, which is 30 miles from my hometown of Hope, was a community leader there, and I have known him for 20 years or so.
Q Do you have any knowledge of Mr. Jack Williams helping Mr. Hubbell in any way with any work?
A No, I do not.
Q Did you have any knowledge about Mr. Hubbell working or doing consulting work for the Sprint company?
A No, I do not.
Q And McAndrews & Forbes, did you have any knowledge of Mr. Hubbell doing any work with McAndrews & Forbes? Ron Perelman is affiliated with them, and you have testified about Mr. Perelman. So I just want to put it in that context, any knowledge you might have on that.
A I appreciate that. I don't have any knowledge of whether he worked for Mr. Perelman or McAndrews & Forbes or not. I do believe at some point I believe Mr. Jordan mentioned that to me as a possibility.
Q Do you know Howard Gittis at McAndrews & Forbes?
A No, I do not. I don't believe I know him.
Q Do you have any knowledge of Mr. Hubbell doing any work for MidAmerica Dairymen?
A No, I do not.
Q Do you have any knowledge of Mr. Hubbell doing any work for SunAmerica?
A No, I do not.
Q A company affiliated with Eli Broad?
A No, I do not.
Q Do you know Mr. Broad?
A I'm acquainted with Mr. Broad.
Q Do you have any knowledge of Mr. Broad assisting Mr. Hubbell in any way?
A No, I do not.
Q Do you have any knowledge about Mr. Hubbell doing any work for the LAX airport, the City of Los Angeles?
A Other than what I've read in public press accounts, no, I do not.
Q Do you have any knowledge about Mr. Hubbell doing any work for the Consumer Support & Education Fund?
A No, I do not.
Q Do you know Mr. John Phillips?
A It is possible I met Mr. Phillips, but I don't I don't know him. It is possible I met him at a social event.
Q Just to return a little bit to the Lippo, there are some people you may have know besides Mr. Riady know are do you know Jose Hanna with the Lippo Group or LippoBank.
A No, I don't believe I know Mr. Hanna.
Q Do you have any knowledge of Susan Thomases doing any work for LippoBank or Lippo affiliates?
A No, I do not.
Q Are you aware of trusts set up by Mr. Mike Schaufele for Mr. Hubbell's family? SCHAUFELE?
A I think I know who you're referring to. Other than public press accounts, no, I do not.
Q Did you have any knowledge of Mr. Hubbell writing a book?
A No, other than again public press accounts, I do not.
Q You had mentioned in regards to the Lippo Group that until you saw press accounts you didn't know about it. When you read the press accounts, did you have any discussions with Mr. Hubbell about the Lippo Group?
A No, I did not.
Q When is the last time you have had a conversation or contact with Mr. Hubbell?
A I had a perchance encounter with him about a month when my son and I were eating in a restaurant here in Washington and he happened to be dining at the same restaurant. I shook hands with him.
Q And prior to that?
A I can't recall when is the last time I've seen Webb prior to that, Ms. Comstock. It has been, I think, a number of months, perhaps well over a year.
Q And your discussion, did that encounter social greetings?
A I shook hands and wished him well.
Q Did you have any discussion with anyone at the White House about, once the public information came out about the Lippo Group, about will Hubbell work for Lippo group?
A I don't recall that I did and I don't believe that I did.
Q What was your understanding, if any, of what kind of money Mr. Hubbell was making in 1994?
A I had no idea.
Q Were you surprised to read the press accounts of him making upwards of half a million dollars?
A I was surprised to learn of some of the employers, just simply because I didn't know about them. I don't know about the terms of the arrangements.
Q Were you surprised to learn about the Lippo Group sn a $100,999 payment?
A I don't know that I really had any any particular reaction to it. I just simply didn't focus on it.
Q Did you have any curiosity about it or ask anybody about it?
A I really did not give it very much thought. I just simply did not know about it, and so I was surprised to read about it simply because I didn't know about it. I just didn't give it any thought.
Q You never had any discussions with anyone at the White House about, gee, what did Webb do for $100,000 with the Lippo Group?
A No, I did not.
Q Nothing like that?
A No, nothing like that.
Q When did you first learn that Mr. Hubbell was going to plead guilty to the charges relating or related to his law firm?
A Either from public accounts, I believe in December of 1994, or shortly before the public accounts.
Q Were you aware of him talking with the President and the First Lady at or around I mean, his plea was on December 6, 1994. Were you aware of him talking with the President or First Lady at or around Thanksgiving of 1994 about this situation?
A No, I was not.
Q Have you ever had any discussions with the President or the First Lady about Mr. Hubbell's plea?
A No, I can't recall that I have.
Q Following the plea, any reaction from the President or the First Lady that you recall?
A I don't recall their making any statements in my presence or having any discussion with them about the plea.
Q At all?
A I don't recall any.
Q Did you have any discussions with Mr. Hubbell at or around the time of his guilty plea?
A No, I don't believe that I did.
Q Do you recall you said you had had one or two contacts with him in the months following his resignation. Do you recall that? Just do you recall, just generally, one or two contacts between say March and December of '94?
A Yes. That's as I recall it limited contacts, isolated contacts I think was your worlds, one or two. I don't know the exact number.
Q And then if you can place in time after the guilty plea, do you recall any contacts with Mr. Hubbell?
A I don't believe I talked with Mr. Hubbell after the guilty plea, Ms. Comstock. It is possible that I did, but I don't believe that I did.
Q This is a March 9th, 1995, calendar entry. Again, I believe this is your handwriting; is that correct?
A Yes, it is.
Q Okay. And could you tell us what that says, the entry there?
A It says "Calls, get it done, Nussbaum, Webb, Middleton."
Q And can you recall generally in March of '95 what calls to Nussbaum or Webb or Middleton would be about?
A No, I cannot. This is a reminder to call these people or to make an attempt to. I don't recall calling Mr. Hubbell during this period, Ms. Comstock. I may have, but I don't believe that I did.
Q Do you recall any discussion in the White House in an it is actually going back to '94, about subpoenas that were going to Mr. Hubbell at or around May of 1994, the summer of '94, they were also simultaneous with subpoenas that were also going to the White House at that time from Mr. Fisk, then subsequently Mr. Starr, started in August of 1994?
A I don't recall any discussion about subpoenas during this period regarding Mr. Hubbell. Certainly I could have had some discussions, but I don't recall any. And I don't believe that I did.
Q And then returning to March of '95, do you recall just in the spring of '95 any matters related to Mr. Hubbell that you needed to make a call?
A May I confer with my attorney for a minute?
[Witness confers with counsel.]
The Witness. Ms. Comstock, I can't say, sitting here today, with certainty what this jotted line of to do list means. I think the general premise here is calls. They are not related. I think they are individual calls that I need to make or want to make that day.
And I believe the notation is to remind me that I would like to call Webb to see how he is doing. I believe he is in prison at this time, if I'm not mistaken.
BY MR. COMSTOCK:
Q Actually, he didn't go to prison until August of '95.
A Then I'm mistaken on the time frame. I don't believe that I called him. It is possible that I did but I don't believe that I did. I believe at some point I asked my attorney whether or not that would be appropriate and
Mr. Taylor. Don't tell her what we discussed, but
The Witness. I conferred with my attorney.
Ms. Comstock. We'll extrapolate.
The Witness. It is possible that I called him but I don't believe that I did.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q Do you recall, on or around the spring of '95, what you were calling Mr. Nussbaum about?
A I think to see how he is doing in private life.
Q And then Mr. Middleton, also?
A I don't recall what I was calling Mr. or Mark, calling Mark about.
Ms. Comstock. I'll make that Deposition Exhibit No. 7.
[McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM7
was marked for identification.]
The Witness. It looks like it is a composite of former colleagues and I'm just trying to touch base, to continue a relationship.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q Going back a little in time, this is April of '94, a calendar entry.
Mr. Taylor. What was the last exhibit?
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q This is EOP 52252 and it is an April 26 entry. Again, that is your handwriting?
A It is.
Q And can you read what that says?
A It says "Burton memo on Webb, HR, for HRC and POTUS," or President.
Q And then that's crossed out?
A Yes, it is.
Q And can you tell us what that means generally when is that if you cross it out, or if you recall the practice?
A Yes, I can give you a description of what I think my system means. Normally this sidebar means that I have intended to do it but probably haven't fully gotten it done, and when I get it done I usually put a check mark, and then a crossout means I probably carried it over to the next day, just kind of finished one day and carried over to the next even though they are not done.
Q And can you tell us if there was a Burton memo on Webb Hubbell to the President and the First Lady?
A To the best of my knowledge, there is not.
Q Do you recall any discussion, how this came about that you were thinking about or if you were thinking about having a Burton memo on Webb Hubbell to the President and First Lady?
A I believe to the best of my memory, sitting here today, that I had thought about dropping a brief memo to the President and/or the First Lady to let them know that I had been supportive of Webb and the transition, while difficult, was not going to be just completely an impossible one. I thought they would be comforted by that. As it turned out, I don't think we ever prepared a memo. I think at some point in time I may have mentioned something to the President and/or the First Lady about it.
Q And what do you recall mentioning to them?
A I think that I related that I had had an encouraging conversation with Truman Arnold and that he was considering using Webb in some manner in some of his companies.
Q And what was the President's response?
A I don't recall, Ms. Comstock, sitting here today, that conversation or relating it to him. I believe it is likely that I did. But I simply just can't tell you what his action or reaction was because I don't recall the actual conversation.
Q Do you recall any discussions with the First Lady about
A No, I do not.
Q Then was this memo going to be about Mr. Hubbell's employment or what he was going to be doing?
A I don't remember
Mr. Taylor. That's the question.
The Witness. I don't know.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q Well, if you were going to be doing a memo, was there ever any attempt to find out, other than Mr. Arnold, who else was helping Mr. Hubbell?
A As I already testified, I don't know whether Mr. Arnold had related he might be contacting others or not. He could have. I don't remember his doing so.
Q Well, you indicated you had wanted to let the President know that Mr. Hubbell was able to support himself or was going to be okay. Was that the gist of what you were trying to relay to the President?
A I think to the President or First Lady, that I had not abandoned friend and former colleague.
Q And in that regard, you didn't in that regard you didn't reach out to find out who else may be helping him. You were just relating what you did?
A That's right. That's right.
Q Were you aware of others informing the President or the First Lady about assistance that had been provided to Mr. Hubbell?
A I don't know whether others informed the President or First Lady or not.
Q Were these conversations you normally had with the President about colleagues who had left, and from time to time did you tell him, here is what Mr. Nussbaum is doing or here is what Mr. Watkins is doing, when he left?
A Oh, I think from time to time you had some conversations of that type. I don't I don't know that it wasn't you had mutual friends that could come up in discussions, I guess, or conversations, is the best way to respond to your question.
Q Do you recall if there were any similar concerns, say about Mr. David Watkins, who left in May of '94, how he was going to be supporting himself, what he was going to be doing?
A I really did not compare Mr. Hubbell's situation with Mr. Watkins. I think it had more frankly the perspective of the loss of Mr. Foster as a partner to the Rose Law Firm and mutual friend, a close friend of the President's. So I really had that perspective in Mr. Hubbell's resignation.
Q And Mr. Watkins, hasn't he been a long time friend of the President also?
A He had been a friend of the President, as I understood it. I don't believe he was a close personal friend, as Mr. Hubbell and Mr. Foster were.
Q So there wasn't a concern that you ever relayed, here's how Mr. Watkins is taking care of himself now, or here's where he is working, to the President?
A I was supportive of Mr. Watkins in his finding employment after he left the White House. I had had known him virtually all of my life, and I believe I related that to the President. But again I didn't equate the two here.
Ms. Comstock. We'll make this notation of the Burton memo Deposition Exhibit No. 8.
[McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM8
was marked for identification.]
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q On the Burton memo, do you know if you ever talked to Mr. Burton about doing such a memo or ever began the process?
A I may have. I don't recall whether I did or not.
Q Do you have any knowledge if he ever began any attempt to find out what kind of work Mr. Hubbell had gotten?
A No, I don't know whether he did or not. I don't recall his ever discussing that with me or my ever discussing it with him.
Q So you never saw any drafts of any type of memo or anything like that?
A No, I did not.
Q This is another calendar entry of June 20th, 1995.
And, again, this is your handwriting; is that correct?
A It is.
Q And does that say Webb meeting?
A It does, Ms. Comstock, but I believe it does not refer to Webb Hubbell. It is a weekly economic briefing which is known in the White House as the web. It is a weekly report prepared by the Council of Economic Advisors that I attend from time to time.
Q Okay, very good. Thank you.
Did you ever have any contact with Mr. Hubbell prior to his going to prison, any you recall in particular. There were some parties before he went to prison. Do you recall being involved in anything like that, dinners or parties?
Mr. Taylor. This would be in the summer of '95?
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q Summer of '95. It was early August of '95.
A Ms. Comstock, I don't recall our attending any parties or events of that type. It is possible that we did. It is possible that I saw Mr. Hubbell, but I don't believe so, before he went to prison.
Q And do you know Marsha Scott, who worked at the White House?
A I do.
Q Were you aware of her being in touch with Mr. Hubbell on any kind of regular basis?
A No, I was not.
Q Were you aware she was in touch with Mr. Hubbell in general?
A I'll not sure I would characterize it "in touch." I knew Ms. Scott was a friend of Mr. Hubbell's and was concerned about him.
Q And what makes you say that?
A She had conveyed those concerns to me shortly after his resignation, as I remember.
Q I'm showing you a March 29th phone message to you from Marsha Scott which says "Need to talk or meet for few minutes re Webb," with two Bs.
Do you recall, at or around the time of Mr. Hubbell's resignation, that's when you recall talking with Ms. Scott?
A I have a vague recollection, that I believe this phone call refers to, of talking with Ms. Scott.
Q And did she talk to you about who he was going to be working with or anything like that?
A No, I don't recall that that was the nature of the visit at all.
Q And the nature of the visit then is just
A As I remember it, she expressed concern about Webb and his family and expressed the view that we should continue that he should not be abandoned by his friends, that that was important, she felt, for us to continue as individuals to display our friendship to him and his family.
Q Did she ever over the months and years talk to you about Mr. Hubbell's work or anything he was doing?
A I don't recall Ms. Scott ever raising anything with me about Mr. Hubbell's work or really anything else about Mr. Hubbell. I don't recall anything of that nature.
Q Were you ever aware of her relaying to anybody else at the White House or the President or the First Lady her visits with Mr. Hubbell?
A No, I'm not.
Ms. Comstock. I'll make that Deposition Exhibit No. 9.
[McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. 9
was marked for identification.]
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q These are also notes. I believe some of the handwriting is your secretary's. Some appears to be yours. We don't have a date on them. If you can make any sense of these for us, the first page, 20241, "Webb Hubbell calling," would that be your secretary Patti McHugh's handwriting?
A Yes, I believe it is.
Q Then a second page, EOP 20242, those would be your notes; is that correct?
A It appears to be my handwriting. But this is a barely legible copy, but it appears to be my handwriting.
Q Okay. I don't know if you can make out any of that handwriting, because of the page being so dark, but if you can.
A I think I remember what these notations refer to.
Q Okay. Could you tell us, please?
A I think they are notes that I had made that reflect a concern, I believe in 1994, although it is not dated, about citizens in Arkansas or people in Arkansas feeling somewhat disenfranchised, and that perhaps we need to consider a stronger, more effective, outreach operation in Arkansas, given that it is the President's home State and many friends of long standing and supporters, and given the environment, which was increasingly a hostile one, to make sure that our position was conveyed. I believe that's what these notes refer to.
Q And the next page, 20244, it is your secretary's handwriting, says, "Harold is here," and then your handwriting on
A I don't , Ms. Comstock, believe these are related. I just simply don't know without was this on the back of this, or do you know?
Q I believe so. This is just how we got it from the White House. We haven't had much explanation on it.
A All I can tell you, not to get into minutia here, to save time, sometimes my secretary walks in with a note and says someone is here, if I'm on the phone or something of this nature. That's what this would refer to, is probably Mr. Ickes is here to see you, how long are you going to be? I don't know whether this note relates to this at all, and I don't have any memory or reason to believe it does. I believe it says "Janet Reno, community position, Webb," and I just, sitting here today, don't have any idea what that means.
Ms. Comstock. Okay. This will be Deposition Exhibit No. 10.
[McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM10
was marked for identification.]
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q Has the President ever expressed any concern to you, to the present day, about Mr. Hubbell being untruthful with him or the First Lady?
A I have a vague recollection at some point in time the President made a comment that Webb's being untruthful surprised us all, something of that nature. I can't place a date but I have a vague recollection of the President making a comment of that type to me.
Q And can you place that in time?
A No.
Q Recently or
A I think it is some period back but not recently, no.
Q Can you place it in the context of were you talking privately with the President or
A I really only had recollection you're asking me the question. I want to be responsive to you, and that's all I remember.
Q And do you have any recollection of any discussion with the First Lady about Mr. Hubbell's being
A No I don't believe I've ever discussed Mr. Hubbell and his situation with the First Lady other than what we've discussed today on the March 13th meeting. I don't recall any other discussion.
Q Were you aware of Mr. Hubbell going to Camp David in the summer of '94 to talk with the President?
A No, I was not.
Q So other than press accounts about that, you had no knowledge of that meeting occurring?
A That's correct. I have no knowledge.
Q Did you ever advise the President anything about meeting with Mr. Hubbell in that time frame after he left the Justice Department, on whether or not he should meet with him?
A I don't believe the President and I have ever discussed that.
RPTS BRYAN
DCMN HERZFELD
[11:30 a.m.]
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q Do you know if anyone in the White House ever made any recommendations one way or the other to him about meeting with Mr. Hubbell?
A I don't know.
Q I wanted to go into some matters related to Mark Middleton.
Could you tell us how long you have known Mr. Middleton?
A I met Mr. Middleton several years ago when I believe he requested a meeting with me after he graduated from the University of Arkansas. I don't know what year that was. Probably in the late '80s, early '90s.
Q Okay. And did you
A I met with him for about 15 minutes.
Q And did you hire him or
A No. He had been president of the student body at the University of Arkansas, as I had been, and I did give him a courtesy meeting. He expressed interest in staying in the State, and I think expressed an interest, a possible interest, in working with Arkla. I told him I did not think we had any open positions, but I wished him well and was glad he was going to stay in the State.
Q And were you familiar with him working on the campaign in 1992?
A I believe I was aware of that.
Q Were you aware of him doing fundraising?
A I don't know that I knew specifically what job he was doing. I was not part of the formal campaign and only went to campaign headquarters a couple of times during that period.
Q Can you tell us how he came to be employed in your office, in the Chief of Staff's Office in 1993?
A I had met Mark, as I said, impressed me as a professional. When the President asked me to serve as Chief of Staff, and when it was announced, there was a plethora of phone calls and mail, and I immediately tried to assemble on very short notice some staff support. Mr. Middleton seemed like the type of energetic, capable young professional that could return 100 of the 300 calls I was receiving a day. So that's how he came to work initially informally in December, and I was impressed with his work. I think he asked to be on my staff, and I felt like I would be getting similar phone calls, and I wanted those matters to be treated courteously and thought Mr. Middleton would be capable of being an executive assistant, special assistant in that regard.
Q So you hired Mr. Middleton for your office?
A I did, I did.
Q Do you recall if the President made any recommendations on hiring Mr. Middleton for your office?
A I don't recall the President making any recommendations, and I think I told the President, and he had a favorable view of Mr. Middleton, but I don't recall he recommended I hire him.
Q Okay. And was could you just tell us what Mr. Middleton's duties were when he came on board?
A Essentially they were as I described. I would say an executive assistant, special assistant, and most of that work, Ms. Comstock, I would say, I would describe at least as a liaison function of handling the many phone calls, correspondence, those types of things that one normally gets in a position like Chief of Staff.
Q And was part of his outreach going to be with the Arkansas community?
A Yes, it was.
Q And would it be Arkansas business community also?
A It would include Arkansas business community, but not be limited to it.
Ms. Comstock. I'm showing the witness a document that's from Mark Middleton to you. It's EOP 52422, a memo to Mack McLarty from Mark Middleton regarding outreach efforts. It begins with, "Pursuant to our conversation earlier in the week, I have given considerable thought to how we could better service our supporters," and then it goes on to talk about events such as White House dinners and radio addresses are mentioned, Air Force One.
On the second page, "I don't think there should ever be an empty seat on board the aircraft. This is a major perk and should be provided selectively, but nonetheless fully utilized."
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q Do you recall getting this memo?
A I do.
Q And is that your handwriting on the top of the memo?
A Yes, it is.
Q And could you tell us what that says generally on the top?
A It has notations, "Phil" and "HI," which I believe refer to Phil Lader and Harold Ickes. "Joan," I believe, refers to Joan Baggett. "Bruce" refers to Bruce Lindsey. "Marcia," I don't know whether that refers to Marsha Scott or Marcia Hale. Both were working in the White House at this time. "Mark" probably refers to Mark Gearan, and "Alexis" would refer to Alexis Herman.
Q And do you recall discussing this memo with Mr. Middleton?
A I have a vague recollection of discussing it with him.
Q And do you know when this document was done?
A No, I do not.
Q You mentioned you thought "Mark" was Mark Gearan. Would you have sent something to Mark Gearan during the time when he was in the was he initially in the Deputy Chief of Staff's Office or Communications, I'm forgetting which?
A You got it. Deputy Chief of Staff and then Communications.
Q Would you have normally sent something to him when he was in the Deputy Chief of Staff's Office as opposed to Communications, or did it vary?
A It varied. I could well have seen him in either or both.
Q And then I guess Phil Lader. When was he in the position?
A I believe Phil Lader was Deputy Chief of Staff at this time, and Mr. Gearan was in Communications.
Q Okay. And so does that give you a sense of what that time frame would be?
A Without really checking my records, I just simply can't tell you what time frame this would be. I don't recall when Mr. Lader joined the White House as Deputy Chief of Staff without reviewing my records. I just don't recall the date.
Mr. Taylor. Would it be fair to say that it's after Harold came and before Mark left?
The Witness. I think that's a good way to describe it.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q Harold didn't join until January of 1994, so the memo would be sometime after January of 1994?
Mr. Taylor. And before February of '95.
The Witness. I think that does put a time frame on it.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q So probably sometime in 1994, okay.
Do you recall generally the discussions with Mr. Middleton I'm sorry, we have gotten a little way from the question, and you may have answered it some, but could you just discuss generally what you recall?
A My testimony was I had a vague recollection of I had seen the memo, and I had a vague recollection of discussing it with Mr. Middleton.
Q And what was that discussion?
A I am not sure, Ms. Comstock, sitting here today I can tell you much more than that, that I remember. It would be really reconstruction.
Q Do you recall discussing with Mr. Middleton various perks or things at the White House that could be provided to major donors?
A No, I cannot. My recollection is that we were mindful of not to lose touch with those that had supported us and wanted an organized, orderly effort to do that. That's what I remember the basis of this memorandum discussion. I just don't remember any more about the specifics of it.
Q Mr. Middleton is specifically discussing in paragraph 2 final donors; is that correct?
A Uhhuh.
Q Do you recall discussing financial donors with Mr. Middleton?
A Yes, I had some discussions from time to time with him about that, primarily in light of the DNC budget, which, as Chief of Staff, I had some responsibility for coordination in that regard, and I believe that's the context here.
Q In particular he talks about sort of the level of donors, and I would suggest that we reach all the way back to the $20,000 contribution level.
Do you recall any level of donors that you were going to reach out to?
A No, I don't recall any level of that specific nature.
Q Then again, the next sentence says, I am presently attempting to identify DNC trustees who have fallen between the cracks, and there are several.
Do you recall discussing with him identifying DNC trustees?
Mr. Taylor. Who have fallen between the cracks?
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q Or just generally discussing DNC trustees.
A No, I have a recollection of receiving this memorandum, and I have a recollection of a discuss with Mark, but I just don't remember the specifics of it, Ms. Comstock.
Q Do you recall if you asked him to do anything else after this memo?
A No, I do not know whether I asked him to do anything as a followup or not.
Q And do you know if in the beginning he says, "Pursuant to our conversation earlier in the week." Do you know if others were present during that conversation?
A No, I do not know whether it was just a conversation between Mr. Middleton and me or whether there were others in the conversation that this memorandum refers to. I just don't know.
Q And do you know, is the situation at the top do you know why you would send it to these various people, or is it your testimony that you did send it to the people who are identified on the top?
A The notations no, that's not my testimony.
Q Okay. I'm sorry.
A The notations could suggest that, but they could also suggest that I either planned a visit with these individuals or get their views as well. So the notations could mean either, and it's hard sitting here today to know whether it was sent or whether they are notes to myself to visit with these individuals.
Mr. Ballen. Do you have an independent recollection, sir, of what they meant?
The Witness. No, I do not.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q On the number 2 where it says, "Desk"?
A That's to bring back to my desk, to have it on my desk.
Q Is that usually how you would say you know, you would say, I want a copy for my desk?
A Uhhuh.
Q I'm just trying to understand notations. Would 1 be a copy to Phil, and 2 be a copy to "my desk"?
A The desk would mean to bring it back to my desk, and 1 could mean a copy to Phil.
Q Because you are not going to talk to your desk, right?
A No, I would not. No, it means to bring it back to my desk.
Q And the P 2 weeks, is that your notations for pending 2 weeks?
A I believe it is.
Q And then the "Marsha" and "Mark" and "Alexis," you don't know if that was people you wanted to talk to about it or sent the memo to; is that correct?
A That's my testimony.
Q And do you recall then generally, aside from the notations, talking with any of these individuals about generally the topics addressed in the memo?
A No, I do not recall that.
Q Okay. Not at all?
A No, I do not.
Q And then at the top where it says "political file," is that Patti McHugh's handwriting?
A It is.
Q And what does that notation mean?
A I think it suggests to file this in a political file.
Q So in other words an actual file in your office that was called the political file?
A I don't know how Ms. McHugh had my files organized. I depended on her for that.
Q Were you aware of any lists that Mr. Middleton put together as a result, or, in general, are you aware of lists of supporters he put together?
A I don't recall seeing any lists, Ms. Comstock, that Mr. Middleton put together.
Q Were you aware of him compiling or getting them together?
A No, I don't recall that he did.
Q Do you know of any of Mr. Middleton's suggestions being implemented at the White House?
Mr. Ballen. As referred to in this memo?
Ms. Comstock. Yes.
The Witness. Ms. Comstock, I don't remember any followup on this memorandum, and I don't remember the suggestions being implemented.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q Okay. For instance, spots at the Saturday radio addresses, which I think are mentioned on page 52423. After No. 4 there, "Saturday radio addresses should also be utilized to take care of our political and financial supporters."
Were you ever aware of anything being implemented in that regard?
A I don't remember any system being put in place to implement this suggestion.
Q Okay. Then similarly, with Air Force One, do you have any knowledge of whether Air Force One had been any action was taken on getting financial supporters onto Air Force One?
A No, I don't. I don't recall that being followed up on either.
Q The last page of the document, page 52424, Mr. Middleton asked you to authorize him to compile a comprehensive list of early and substantial contributors.
Would those be your circles and your marks on this document? Would that be accurate?
A I believe they are.
Q Do you know if you ever authorized him to do anything like that?
A I don't recall that I did, Ms. Comstock. I don't recall any followup on this memorandum.
Q Okay. And so do your circles or notations there give you any indication of any action you took? Does that refresh your recollection as to any action that was taken?
A No, they do not. They don't signify or suggest that.
Ms. Comstock. This is Deposition Exhibit No. 11.
[McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM11
was marked for identification.]
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q This document is EOP 42878. It says, "Arkansas Finance Committee," and the notation on the side is, "Mark Middleton's list."
Have you ever seen this list?
A I don't recall seeing this list, Ms. Comstock. It is possible that I have, but I don't recall seeing this list.
Q Do you know what the Arkansas Finance Committee is?
A No, I do not.
Q On the last page of the previous exhibit, Mark Middleton had asked that a directive be issued to key White House officials about taking care of friends.
Do you recall generally if there was ever any attempt to compile a list of friends that would be let into the White House, Arkansas friends, anything like that?
A I don't know whether this list that you're showing me, Ms. Comstock, relates to this.
Q And I'm not representing it does. I'm just sort of providing that to see if that refreshes your recollection on anything that Mr. Middleton might have done in terms of lists.
A The answer is no, it does not refresh my memory, or I don't know what this means or suggests.
Q And were you aware of any kind of database that Mr. Middleton participated in?
Mr. Ballen. Excuse me. Just so the answer is clear, when you are referring to "this," you are referring to Arkansas Finance Committee, you do not know what this list represents; is that correct?
The Witness. I mean, I cannot speculate.
Mr. Ballen. No, please don't speculate.
Ms. Comstock. We will make that list Deposition Exhibit No. 12, so that we are referring here to Deposition Exhibit No. 12, the Arkansas Finance Committee list.
[McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM12
was marked for identification.]
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q And do you have any knowledge of any database that Mr. Middleton provided documents to or lists to, I'm sorry?
A No, I do not.
Q Are you familiar with the White House database in general, what's been referred to as WhoDB?
A I am familiar with discussions about the need to have an orderly record of certain individuals I'm not sure I would classify that WhoDB as you did for certain invitations to Christmas parties and so forth. I am generally aware of a feeling that we needed a database, an orderly system to contact certain individuals on an orderly basis.
Q And did you have an understanding of what that was to be used for?
A It was to be used for certain invitations, Christmas cards, Christmas parties, things of that nature, and I was generally aware of the need to have that.
Q Were you aware of donor lists being incorporated into that system?
A I'm not sure that I understood that donor lists would be incorporated into that general system, Ms. Comstock, at all.
Q Do you have any knowledge of any DNC officials being allowed to utilize that system in any way?
A No, I do not.
Mr. Taylor. Could we break for a second?
Ms. Comstock. Okay, sure.
[Brief recess.]
Ms. Comstock. I'm showing the witness a May 5, 1994 memo to Ann Cahill from Martha Phipps.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q Following up on previous Mr. Middleton's memo on ideas on how the White House could be utilized, this memo sets out 19 different items, and the beginning of it says, "In order to reach our very aggressive goal of 40 million this year, it would be very helpful if we could coordinate the following activities between the White House and the Democratic National Committee."
Directing your attention to item No. 14, it says, "One lunch with Mack McLarty per month, contact Mark Middleton."
Do you know if anything like that was ever coordinated with the DNC between your office and the DNC?
A I don't know.
Q Have you ever seen this memo before?
A I don't recall that I have. It's possible I have, but I don't recall that I've seen this.
Mr. Ballen. This is not an memo directed to you, was it?
The Witness. No, it was not.
Ms. Comstock. For the record, it is to Ms. Cahill from Martha Phipps, who is a DNC employee. I believe Ann Cahill was in, I think, Mr. Ickes' office or the social offices over there. I forget at this time.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q You have no knowledge then of any general efforts to have a DNC donor lunch that you would have with somebody once a week or a group of people once a month I'm sorry, month?
A No, I don't recall anything of that nature.
Ms. Comstock. Okay. I'll make that Deposition Exhibit Number 13.
[McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM13
was marked for identification.].
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q This is a memo to Mack McLarty from Skip Rutherford on September 8th, 1994.
Can you tell us what capacity Mr. Rutherford was serving in at this time in 1994?
A Mr. Rutherford was and is in the private sector in Arkansas.
Q And was he also a paid DNC employee at this time or contractor or consultant?
A I believe he did have a contract with DNC as an advisor, I believe that's correct.
Q Did you ever talk with anybody about setting that contract up at the DNC?
A I may have.
Q Do you recall him being paid approximately $90,000 a year at the DNC?
A I don't recall the terms. That may be correct.
Q Do you recall discussing who you would have discussed it with at the DNC, setting up a contract for Mr. Rutherford?
A I can't recall specifically discussing with anyone, Ms. Comstock, but it's possible that I did.
Q And what was your understanding of what services he would be providing to the DNC?
A I don't know that I had an understanding of the services he would be providing to the DNC.
Q But was it your did you have an interest in having Mr. Rutherford employed as a consultant by the DNC?
A Yes, I did.
Q And do you know others who were asking for that aside from you?
A Mr. Rutherford is very highly regarded. I don't know whether there were others that asked for that. Part of his responsibilities were giving me informal advice, and I believe that came under the contract that you referred to.
Q And was this memo some sort of that advice then?
A I don't know.
Q Just directing your attention to the first paragraph, the sentence that says, "The Arkansas Travelers should be reactivated at that time with particular emphasis on the early primary States."
Do you know what he is referring to as the "Arkansas Travelers"?
A I believe there was a group in 1992 of Arkansans that traveled to various primary States and campaigned for the President, and they were called the Arkansas Travelers.
Q Do you know who that group included?
A I did not.
Q Do you know if they were involved in fundraising at all?
Mr. Ballen. Excuse me, counsel. I'm going to object to this line of questioning. I've been waiting patiently to see the interaction between campaign finance and our investigation and Mr. Rutherford. I don't see it yet. Perhaps if you could provide it for the record.
Ms. Comstock. Maybe we can wrap this up. The pending question was, do you know if this was involved in fundraising at all, these individuals.
Mr. Ballen. I'm sorry, but before Mr. McLarty answers it, so you are not going to provide me for the record with an explanation of how that line of questioning relating to Skip Rutherford that you have been on for the past 5 minutes relates to the mandate to this committee?
Ms. Comstock. I want to find out if this has anything to do with fundraising.
Mr. Taylor. Does it?
The Witness. This memorandum or the Arkansas Travelers?
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q If the Arkansas Travelers had anything to do with fundraising?
A I don't know. I don't know.
Ms. Comstock. I'll make this Deposition Exhibit No. 14.
[McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM14
was marked for identification.].
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q Is Mr. Rutherford also involved with the Clinton Library?
A Yes, he is.
Q And is he the contact person for the archives, archiving of Presidential records, if you know?
A I don't know what his exact responsibilities are.
Q When Mr. Middleton left the White House in February of '95, did you keep in touch with him?
A I saw Mr. Middleton from time to time.
Q And can you tell us what contact that was?
A I think they were contacts you would expect with a former staff member. I saw him from time to time.
Q Did you see him come to the White House frequently?
A I saw him from time to time in the White House.
Q Did he tell you what he wanted to do when he left the White House?
A Yes, he did.
Q And what was that?
A He told me he was going to work with Steve Green, a businessman from Florida.
Q And what type of business was that?
A I'm not fully knowledgeable of Mr. Green's business endeavors. I know Mr. Green. He's quite successful, but I'm not knowledgeable of his business endeavors.
Q Were you aware of Mr. Middleton being interested in Asian business?
A Yes, I was aware he was interested in trade matters and the Asian/Pacific region. That was about the extent of it.
Q Did Mr. Middleton ever bring Steve Green in to meet with you?
A He may have. I think I had met Mr. Green earlier in time.
Q Did Mr. Middleton ever have any business clients that he brought in to meet with you?
A I really did not know or do not know who Mr. Middleton's clients are.
Q Are you aware of him doing any business with the Riadys or the Lippo Group?
A I'm not aware whether or not he has a business relationship with the Riadys or not.
Q You seem to sort of hesitate. Do you have any knowledge of his business with
Mr. Ballen. Excuse me. I'm going to object so the record is clear. I didn't see the witness hesitate. If you want to ask a question, go ahead.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q I was just wondering if you have any other knowledge of Mr. Middleton's business with any connection with the Riadys or Lippo?
A No, I do not.
Q Have you discussed that with anybody at the White House?
A No, I don't believe that I have.
Q Were you aware of Mr. Middleton doing any work in raising I'm sorry.
A No.
Q Were you aware of Mr. Middleton doing any fundraising for the Clinton Birthplace Foundation?
A I may have been aware of Mr. Middleton was supportive of the Birthplace Foundation.
Q Do you know how you learned of that?
A I don't know whether he told me or someone else did. I simply may have been aware of it.
Q Did Mr. Middleton ever introduce you to a Nina Wang?
A No, I don't believe that he did.
Q Do you have any knowledge of any particular people Mr. Middleton was fundraising, soliciting funds from for the Birthplace Foundation?
A No, I do not.
Q Are you aware of any work that Mr. Middleton was doing with the Widjaja family, WIDJAJA?
A May I see a copy of the spelling of the family you mentioned?
Q Yes. This is a memo to Mr. McLarty from Janice Enright regarding the Widjaja.
A Yes. I believe I knew Mr. Middleton was acquainted with this family. I don't think I knew or not whether they were clients of Mr. Middleton.
Q Do you have any knowledge of them at all generally, who they were?
A I understood them to be successful Indonesian businesspeople with a number of successful business holdings.
Q Were you aware of Mr. Middleton attempting to get them in to see anybody at the White House?
A Yes, I was.
Q And who
A He asked me to attend a dinner, and I did a dropby, and I believe I met at least some members of this family.
Q And can you just describe that event?
A It was a dinner that Mr. Middleton hosted, I believe, at the HayAdams. He asked me to drop by, which I did. I met them. It was a courtesy visit. I was generally supportive of the Pacific region and trading relationships there.
Q How many people were at the dinner?
A I really don't know.
Q Was it your sense that it was only that family, or was it a large group?
A I think there were other people there than just the family members. I stayed for about 10 or 15 minutes. I did not stay for dinner.
Q Was it one table of people or two or under 100?
A People were standing when I arrived. It seemed to be about 20, 25 people, as I remember, but I could be off on that.
Q And what was your understanding of what he was doing, what his purpose was in having you meet with them?
A As I remember it, I believe the chairman of the company was receiving an international award the next day that was going to be presented in Washington, and he had asked me to stop by and meet this family. Mr. Middleton had worked with me on the APEC conference in Seattle, so it was consistent with those efforts, and I told him I would be glad to do so if my schedule permitted, which it did.
Q Do you know if Don Fowler or anybody from the DNC was at the meeting at the dinner?
A I don't recall seeing Mr. Fowler there.
Q Directing your attention to the second paragraph of this memo, it says, "Harold is not familiar with work that is being done in this regard." Actually, the initial paragraph talks about the Clinton Library, but it says, "I am told by Terry that you and Mark are working on this project at the direction of Mrs. Clinton."
Do you know what can you make sense of that for us, what the project was, and what was being worked on, and how that connected with the Widjaja family, if at all?
A I don't know that it is connected with the Widjaja family. I believe this is in reference to the Clinton Library, and Mr. Middleton had done some research work for me on how other Presidential libraries were established during his tenure in the White House.
Q Where it says do you know who Terry is? It says, "According to the Terry," in the first paragraph, "Mark has been talking to them about the Clinton Library."
A I believe that refers to Terry McAuliffe, but I'm not sure.
Q And do you know why Mark Middleton was talking to Terry McAuliffe about this?
A No, I do not.
Q And do you know why these folks are being talked to about the Clinton Library?
A I don't know that they were talked to about the Clinton library.
Q The memo says, "According to Terry, Mark has been talking to them," but you don't know about that?
Mr. Taylor. I object. Are you asking him about what somebody else wrote?
Ms. Comstock. Right.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q No, I'm just asking you what you know about what is in this memo that was to you, if you had any knowledge about that.
Mr. Taylor. I think he has answered your question.
Ms. Comstock. Okay.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q Do you know what you did in response to this memo?
A I took this memo, the emphasis of it at least, was to provide Ms. Enright with information about this family and their business endeavors. I believe that's what she requested, and I believe I did that to the best of my knowledge.
Q And what did you do?
A I believe I wrote her a note back, or I dictated a note, saying it was my understanding that this family was involved in business endeavors in Indonesia and was well regarded, but that I could not vouch for them. That was my understanding. That's what had been told to me.
Ms. Comstock. Let me get that memo.
The Witness. That's what
Mr. Ballen. Did you finish your answer, sir?
The Witness. That's what had been told to me.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q I do have that memo, so I wanted to provide that to you.
A This is consistent with my testimony.
Mr. Taylor. That is consistent with your testimony.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q And this is another a November 2nd, 1995 memo for Janice Enright from Patti McHugh, who is your assistant; is that correct?
A That's correct.
Q And the subject is, your memo to Mack, re: the three family members that were mentioned in the previous memo, which I'll go ahead and make Deposition Exhibit Number 15.
Why don't I clarify. On that document also, that is your handwriting on the top where it says is that, cleared by Counsel's Office?
Mr. Ballen. I'm afraid the record is going to be unclear. If we can indicate when he is talking about this, which memo.
Ms. Comstock. I'm going to make the first November 2nd, 1995 memo Deposition Exhibit Number 15, and that's the memo to Mack McLarty from Janice Enright. That's 052345, and that's the memo asking about any information on these people.
[McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM15
was marked for identification.]
Ms. Comstock. The second memo, 20333, which we will make Deposition Exhibit Number 16; a memo for Janice Enright from Mr. McLarty's assistant, Patti McHugh.
[McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM16
was marked for identification.]
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q The pending question was if that was your handwriting at the top of Deposition Exhibit Number 15?
A I believe the circled part is my handwriting.
Q Does that say, "Cleared by Counsel's Office"?
A That's what it appears to say.
Q And then that's your secretary's handwriting then to the right on the edge of the page there that says, Ron Brown's office it says something; Connie scheduling; also met; and then in there is also, 1st Lady?
A Uhhuh.
Q 1st Lady; is that your handwriting, or is that somebody else's?
A I can't tell. I can't tell.
Q Were you aware of the Widjajas' meeting with the First Lady in this time frame also?
A I don't believe I was aware of that. I may have been, but I don't believe I was aware of that.
Q Do you have any knowledge of any attempts to get the First Lady to meet with this family?
A I don't recall any requests being made to me, no.
Q Do you recall Mark Middleton ever telling you anything to the effect that these people were important to the administration?
A As I recall it, Mr. Middleton said they were successful businesspeople. I don't recall his saying about the importance of the administration, other than outreach to the Pacific/Asia for international commerce.
Q Did you have any understanding whether they were U.S. citizens?
A I don't know whether they were U.S. citizens or not.
Q Other than the dinner that you stopped by at, do you know of any other visits or activities that you have knowledge of with the Widjajas?
A I believe the next day I by chance encountered Mr. Widjaja, whom I had not met, who I believe was receiving the award. He was with Mr. Middleton and I believe some of the other members of the family that I had met the night before, and I believe I recall Mr. Middleton saying, this gentleman is receiving this award tonight, or at some point in time, and I shook his hand and congratulated him. It was a perchance meeting. I did not know he was going to be there.
Q You had mentioned the dinner, and I just wanted to show you 52308 through 309 indicates, depart en route to Mark Middleton's dinner; location, the HayAdams Hotel.
Mr. Ballen. Could I have a copy of that as well?
Ms. Comstock. Yes.
Mr. Ballen. Thank you.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q Do you recall, was the dinner before do you recall when in time the dinner was in relation to when you received memos about the Widjajas?
A No, I do not.
Q In this time frame, was there any other Middleton dinner aside from this one, the one you previously described?
A I don't recall that there was.
Q So in the fall of '95 generally, you are only aware of one dinner that you a Mark Middleton dinner at the HayAdams that you stopped by?
A I believe that's the case, Ms. Comstock, but there may have been another occasion. I just simply don't remember sitting here today. That's the only one I recall.
Q Do you know if on other occasions you had when Mr. Middleton had any Asian businessmen that he was associated with where you were at dinners?
Mr. Ballen. Excuse me. I didn't hear the end of the question. If there were any other dinners that he may have had with Mr. Middleton with other Asian businesspeople or people who had business in Asia, not necessarily that they were Asian?
The Witness. No, I understand.
RPTS JACKSON
DCMN PARKER
[12:30 p.m.].
A I don't recall any other dinners, Ms. Comstock, that I saw business people either from Asia or doing business in Asia that attended. There possibly could have been one, but I don't remember it and I don't believe there was one.
Q And then, again, returning to Deposition Number 15, do you recall they end up getting their pictures taken, if you know? Fifteen and 16, you indicated you thought was in your memo that Mack feels it would be all right for them to have a photo taken with them this evening. And that's deposition Exhibit 16.
Do you have any knowledge of that happening or not?
A I don't know whether it did or not.
Q Do you recall whether in the course of this you had any conversations with anyone at NSC or any foreign affairs people at the White House?
A I don't recall that I had any conversations with the NSC.
Q Deposition Exhibit Number 16 had indicated that the Commerce Department's counsel had cleared these folks.
Do you recall having any discussions with anyone at the Commerce Department about that or the information in here was relayed to you by Mark Middleton?
A I don't recall any
Ms. Comstock. Sorry, I asked two questions.
Mr. Taylor. You sure did.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q Do you recall if you discussed these folks with anybody at the Commerce Department, the Widjajas?
A No, I don't believe I had any discussion with the Commerce Department about this matter.
Q And then to the extent that the memo reflects that Mark Middleton has advised they've been cleared by the counsel's office and the Commerce Department, did Mr. Middleton then tell your office that and you accepted his account of that and it wasn't checked at the Commerce Department? Would that be a fair assessment?
A No, I don't know.
Mr. Taylor. Your foundation is missing here because there's absolutely no evidence that Mr. McLarty talked to Mr. Middleton about Mr. Middleton's representations about the Commerce Department. It is
Ms. Comstock. Well, why don't we go into that, then.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q Did you ask your assistant to check on this, or did you personally check on it?
Mr. Taylor. If you know.
The Witness. I don't think I personally checked on it, and I don't remember asking my assistant to do it. It is possible I did, but I don't think I did.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q Do you recall talking to Mark Middleton about these people at all?
Mr. Taylor. Other than what you've already testified to.
The Witness. No, I don't think I had any further discussions with Mr. Middleton other than what I've already related to you.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q Then, in the memo where it says, "Mack indicated that although he cannot attest to the absolute integrity of the above individuals, he can affirm that they are legitimate business people," do you know any basis of that being your view that you can affirm they were legitimate business people?
A They had been presented to me that way.
Q By Mr. Middleton?
A By Mr. Middleton. And I believe I further felt that was affirmed with the award that they were receiving, I believe, the next day that seemed to be a highly prestigious award. I've forgotten who was Chairman, but a wellknown leading American was the Chairman of the lunch, whenever they received the award.
Q Your testimony is that you don't recall Mark Middleton telling you about the Commerce Department contact?
A No, I have no recollection of any discussion with Mr. Middleton about the Commerce Department.
Q The letter also indicates that Mark also said that they met with the First Lady. Do you recall any discussion with Mark Middleton about these people meeting with the First Lady?
A No, I do not.
Q Or do you recall Patty McHugh telling you anything about these people had met with the First Lady?
A I don't recall Patty relating that to me.
Q So you have no knowledge about anything about the First Lady meeting with these people; is that correct?
A I have no knowledge. It's possible Ms. McHugh said something to me and I just, sitting here today, don't remember her saying that.
Mr. Ballen. You have no recollection.
The Witness. That's right.
Ms. Comstock. I'll make this calendar entry for October 31st the Mark Middleton dinner, make that Deposition Exhibit Number 17.
[McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM17
was marked for identification.]
Ms. Comstock. This is a November 3rd, '95 , calendar entry on this.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q Again, is that your handwriting on there?
A Yes, it is.
Q And can you read what that says?
A It says Mark Middleton, Charlie Trie, Indo Group.
Q And do you recall what that entry means?
A I recall the Mark Middleton entry at 3:00 denotes a meeting that I was going to have with Mark Middleton on November 3rd.
Q Do you recall meeting with Charlie Trie?
A Mr. Trie was not present at this meeting. I believe I've only met Mr. Trie on one occasion.
Q And when was that?
A I can't place it in time. I believe it was either in 1993 or 1994.
Q And what was the context of the meeting?
A I don't recall. I have a vague recollection it is some type of reception, shaking his hand.
Q And what makes you recall that?
A I just simply remember shaking his hand and his being introduced as Charlie Trie.
Q Did you know he was a donor or trustee or anything like that?
A No, I did not.
Q Was this with a large group of people?
A I have a vague recollection of a reception type setting where I was introduced to him and shook his hand, and that's the only time I believe I've ever spoken with Mr. Trie.
Q So you did not know him from Arkansas?
A No, I did not.
Q Do you know what the Indo Group here indicates?
A I'm not certain what it indicates. It is on or around the time with the Widjajas. It may refer to them, but I don't know for certain.
Q So you do not recall Charlie Trie, though, being with the Widjajas at all?
A No, I do not.
Q And do you recall, aside from this dinner, did you meet with the Widjajas and see them at the White House at all?
A I think I've already testified that I saw
Q Mr. Widjaja.
A Mr. Widjaja the next day unexpectedly. Other than that, that's the only two times I ever met with any of the Widjaja family.
Ms. Comstock. Make that Deposition Exhibit Number 18.
[McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM18
was marked for identification.]
Ms. Comstock. This is another schedule. It is EOP 52310, which is also for November 3rd, and it indicates a 3:00 meeting with Mark Middleton, location 1201 Connecticut Avenue.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q Do you recall a meeting with Mark Middleton's office at 1201 Connecticut? That's not his office, is it? Do you recall what this meeting is?
A I recall meeting Mr. Middleton at 3:00 on November 3rd. And this notation on my formal calendar is the same as the notation on my Daytimer. It is the same meeting.
Q And this is a meeting that Charlie Trie was not at?
A That is correct.
Q And have you told us everything about this meeting that you recall, this November 3rd meeting with Mark Middleton, what that was about?
A I don't think you've asked me about it.
Q I'm sorry, we're getting confused. Why don't you tell us about this meeting?
A The meeting, as I remember, it was what I would describe as a social and personal meeting. I had really not had an opportunity to see Mark for any length of time since he left the White House. And this seemed to be a convenient time and place for us to meet and have an opportunity for a visit, which we did.
Q And what is 1201 Connecticut Avenue?
A That's actually the offices of Zuckerman and Spaeder.
Q And why were you meeting there?
A I was already there in preparation for another meeting of this type; and, so, when I completed that preparation, I thought a social and personal visit might be an enjoyable change of pace, and it seemed to be a convenient time and place to meet outside the White House and just have a chance to catch up on what Mark was doing and for him to catch up on what I was doing. It was the first time I had seen him since he left for any length of time.
Q So you were not talking to Mr. Middleton on any legal matters?
A No, I was not. And no White House business, either.
Ms. Comstock. I'll make that Deposition Exhibit Number 19.
[McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM19
was marked for identification.]
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q Then I guess the Indo Group referenced there, when you put the two together and you have Mark Middleton and you met at Zuckerman and Spaeder and then the Indo Group, you don't know what the connection is there, why that was on the calendar at that time?
A I don't think there is a connection.
Q Do you know why that was there on your calendar, what that refers to?
A Sitting here today, no, I do not know why I made that notation.
Q You didn't talk to Mr. Middleton about Charlie Trie or anything Indo Grouptype related?
A I can't say, sitting here today, that those weren't notations for me to ask Mark about the Indo Group or make a comment, which I believe refers to Widjajas. And I just simply don't know what the notation about Mr. Trie means.
Q I don't know where the Bates stamp number is on this. It is an April 13th, 1993, memo for Mr. McLarty from Tony Lake. The subject is request for Presidential photo opportunity with PRC Governor and delegation.
I believe you previously had testified something to the effect of, and maybe I'm mistaken, PRC delegation. But I'll give you a chance to review that. This is different from the Governor of Jakarta thing, which is what you had previously testified. I'm sorry.
A No, that's all right.
Q Do you recall receiving this memo?
A Sitting here today, I do not recall receiving this memo.
Q Do you recall the general subject matter coming up in 1993?
A No, I do not.
Q Do you recall the PRC Governor and delegation visiting the White House?
A No, I do not.
Q So you have no knowledge that you can inform us about this meeting or event or photo opportunity?
A I just simply don't remember this memoranda, and I don't remember a visit by the PRC and I having any involvement in it. I just simply don't have any recollection of it sitting here today.
Q Do you know who Kris Cicio is, who is mentioned in the last paragraph?
A I believe Ms. Cicio was I believe she is was and is a secretary in the National Security Counsel's office.
Q And do you know who Ken Wiedemann is?
A I believe he was a staff person at the NSC.
Q Do you have any knowledge of them meeting with this delegation?
A No, I do not.
Ms. Comstock. Let me mark that Deposition Exhibit Number 20.
[McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM20
was marked for identification.]
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q I think your testimony, this is fairly clear, but this does mention in the memo the event was being promoted by Charlie Trie.
Do you recall, in general, any events where Charlie Trie was promoting or trying to get meetings with any Chinese delegations in general?
A No, I do not.
Q Okay.
The November 3rd, 1995, meeting that you had with Mr. Middleton, was that just between you and Mr. Middleton, there was nobody else there?
A Yes, it was just the two of us.
Q Do you have any knowledge about Mr. Middleton working with Charlie Trie?
A I was aware they were acquainted. I don't have any knowledge of his working with Mr. Trie.
Q How did you learn they were acquainted?
A Mr. Middleton mentioned Mr. Trie to me on occasions.
Q Can you tell us on what occasions what he said.
A I don't recall a specific occasion. I was aware they knew each other.
Q Did he mention traveling with him or going to any parties at the Watergate Hotel that he had?
A No, nothing of that type.
I do have a vague recollection of one occasion when Mr. Middleton mentioned Mr. Trie as a possible prospective fundraiser, and I acknowledged that comment. And that's about all I remember about any comments Mr. Middleton made about Mr. Trie to me.
Q Do you know why he was telling you about him being a fundraiser?
A I believe it was in the context of a conversation we were having of that type, and I think I probably suggested Mr. Trie I mean Mr. Middleton I think I just said I would take that under advisement. I think it was in the context of a discussion.
Q Do you recall if this was when Mr. Middleton was working at the White House?
A Oh, I think it was, yes.
Q And then after Mr. Middleton left the White House, do you recall him talking about dealings with Charlie Trie?
A To the best of my memory and knowledge, I don't recall Mr. Middleton ever raising Charlie Trie with me after he left the White House.
Q Were you aware of Charlie Trie making any large contributions to the DNC for the health care media fund?
A No, I was not.
Q In 1994?
A No, I was not.
Q Do you recall any discussions with Mark Middleton about Charlie Trie being a potential donor for health care matters at all?
A No. I recall what I just testified, that on one occasion Mr. Middleton mentioned that Mr. Trie might be a potential contributor. And I don't recall anything else about the conversation or any followup about that.
Q Did he say why he thought Mr. Trie would be a potential donor?
A He did not, to the best of my recollection; and I don't believe that he did.
Q And when he suggested that he would be a potential donor, a large donor, not a $25 donor?
A I don't think I talked about specific dollar figures.
Q Do you recall an impression of this I mean, presumably, if you're going to go to somebody, you're going to get more than a $50 contribution. Was that your impression that he gave you?
A My impression was a substantial giver.
Mr. Taylor. Hold on a second.
[Witness confers with counsel.]
The Witness. I think I had used "fundraiser" as opposed to "giver" and I think I used "giver" in the second question. I think it was someone who could raise funds.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q Your understanding is that Charlie Trie would be somebody who would go out and seek funds from others, as opposed to donor?
A Sitting here today, it is hard to remember the specific conversation. But in response to your question, I do have a recollection Mr. Middleton mentioned Mr. Trie as someone, as I remember it, who could possibly raise be a fundraiser, an effective fundraiser.
Q Do you recall him also suggesting that he could be a substantial donor?
A I don't recall that.
Q Did Mr. Middleton give you any understanding of what source of funds Mr. Trie might tap into for fundraising?
A No, he did not.
Q Or for donating himself?
A No, he did not.
Q Do you have an understanding of if Mr. Trie was a man of means or not?
A I only remember one comment that I've testified to.
Q Do you recall, did Mr. Middleton ever tell you about loaning Charlie Trie money himself?
A No, he did not.
Q What was Mr. Middleton's involvement in fundraising while he was at the White House during the time frame when he was at the White House?
A I'm not sure I understand your question.
Q Well, you said you recall this conversation being while he was working with you at the White House. What was your understanding of what Mr. Middleton was doing in relation to fundraising in that time frame, in the '93 through February '95 time frame?
A I think the correct way to respond and an accurate way to respond to your question is, from time to time, I think I asked Mr. Middleton to interface with the DNC and pass along any suggestions to them that he had and work with the political office in that regard, but that was the extent of it.
Q I'm showing the witness a December 15, 1995, memo to Mack McLarty from Mark Middleton regarding Asian Aerospace. Do you recall receiving this memo from Mr. Middleton?
A Sitting here today, I don't recall receiving it.
Q Did Mr. Middleton, after he left the White House, send you memos frequently making any recommendations or asking you for or making any recommendations?
A From time to time, he did.
Q Did he ask you to meet with people or host events, things like that?
A From time to time, he requested us to meet with certain people.
Q And do you recall anything relating to the events here on the Asian Aerospace event in Singapore, Mr. Middleton asking you about anything related to the words in this memo?
A I just don't recall this memoranda.
Q Do you have any knowledge of Mark Middleton being involved in Asian Aerospace issues?
A No, I do not.
Ms. Comstock. I'll make that Deposition Exhibit Number 21.
[McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM21
was marked for identification.]
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q This is a May 20th, 1996, note to Mark Middleton. It is EOP 20344. Is that your handwriting at the top?
A It is.
Q And is this a personal matter, or is this something relating to any client, if you could tell us just from your review of it, if you know?
Mr. Ballen. I'm sorry, I didn't hear.
Ms. Comstock. It says "personal" on the envelope here. I was wondering if this relates to any business matters or if this is an entirely personal communication with him.
The Witness. It does not relate to any business matters. It is a personal communication with Mr. Middleton about Mr. Hogan.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q Mr. Hogan?
A Right.
Q And that is who?
A Mr. Hogan is a business person in Arkansas whom I know, have known over the years as a friend. And I had seen him again by chance, I believe, in the White House, and he had asked me about possibly some opportunities for him to work in Washington. He had been president of the Associated Contractors Association in prior years. And I told him he might want to visit with someone like Mark Middleton to discuss his plans further. And I simply wanted to be courteous to Mr. Hogan and follow up, and that's what this note is about to Mr. Middleton.
Q What is your understanding about what Mr. Middleton would be meeting with him on?
A Simply to discuss with Mr. Hogan developing thoughts he had about whatever endeavors and plans he had for the future.
Q Was this related to any Asian business?
A None whatsoever, to the best of my knowledge.
Q Were you aware of Mr. Hogan being involved in any fundraising with Mr. Middleton?
A No, I am not.
Mr. Taylor. Do you want to stop for a few minutes.
[Brief recess.]
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q I know we're pressed on time here, so I'm going to try to go through some remaining documents that we wanted to ask you about just so we can speed things up as much as we can here.
This is a daily phone log from Mark Middleton of
April 14, 1994, EOP 44984, and it shows a phone call to Mr. Middleton from Joe Giroir, and then the message reads "4/2122 in D.C., bringing Lippo, Entergy, North China Power Corp. Please call per Patty. He wants to meet with Mack."
Do you recall any meetings that you had at or around April, spring, 1994 with Joe Giroir regarding Lippo or Entergy?
A No, I do not.
Q Do you know if Mr. Middleton ever had any meetings with Mr. Giroir regarding Lippo, Entergy, or this North China Power Corporation?
A I know that I now know that, and I may have known that at that time.
Q That Mr. Middleton met with him about these matters?
A Uhhuh.
Q And do you generally recall what your knowledge is about this Lippo, Entergy project?
A I think I knew that Mr. Giroir had requested a meeting with me, that I was not going to be able to see him, and I think I asked my office for Mr. Middleton to see him.
Ms. Comstock, I am not at all sure that I knew what the subject matter of that meeting was, since I was not going to meet with him.
Q Do you know if anyone ever discussed the possibility of Mr. Hubbell doing any work on this power plant?
A No.
Ms. Comstock. I make that Deposition Exhibit Number 22.
[McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM22
was marked for identification.]
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q Do you have any general knowledge about the North China Power Plant project, a joint Lippo, Entergy project that I believe was signed in an August '94 trade mission that Secretary Brown did?
A Uhhuh.
Q Did you ever have any involvement or knowledge about that?
A I had no involvement.
Q Prior to that, I mean, were you aware that that was something Secretary Brown was going to do on that trade mission in the August September '94 time frame?
A I believe I was aware Entergy had an interest in developing energy projects in the Asia Pacific region. I believe that this has been in the public press. I believe I had knowledge of that.
Q But you were not involved in any meetings regarding any of that?
A No. I spoke to the Trade Mission Group before they left for China, as I remember it. And there were 20 or so executives, and I spoke to them before they left.
Q What did you speak with them about?
A I, just from the White House, wished them well on the trip.
Q Was this a meeting where they all were present?
A It was at the Commerce Department.
Q And you went over there and sort of wished them well on their trip?
A Talked about the importance of international trade.
Q Were you aware one of the purposes of this trip was to sign memorandums of understanding or to kind of get trade deals done?
A I was aware that the purpose of the trip was to advocate the President's agenda in China, including business development, but also human rights, which I think Secretary Brown did very effectively.
Q Okay. I show you EOP 029870.
Mr. Taylor. Did you mark that?
Ms. Comstock. Yes, I believe we made the previous Document Deposition Exhibit Number 22.
Mr. Ballen. Excuse me, please. Can I have a copy of that?
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q This is a letter to you from a Joe O'Brien. Can you tell us who Mr. O'Brien is?
A Mr. O'Brien was a bank officer in Little Rock whom I met, and I believe he was an officer with the TCBY, the yogurt company, at a later point in time. And I believe he's an international business consultant.
Q Could you just tell us this, describe the context of this letter, if you could.
A I know Mr. O'Brien. He wrote me this letter that he had seen Dr. Ward, who is president of the University of Arkansas Medical Center, and had had dinner with Dr. Ward and the Lippo Group and our son let's see, wait a minute, was invited by David Yeh to join them. And he is giving me a report that our son seems to being do well in his semester abroad at the Chinese University at Hong Kong.
Q Do you know David Yeh?
A I do not.
Q Do you know how your son came to be invited by Mr. Yeh of The Lippo Group to join this dinner?
A No. I didn't know they had this dinner until I saw this memoranda.
Q Have you ever talked to your son about how he came to be invited for a Lippo Group dinner with these people?
A I don't believe I've ever discussed this dinner with Mark.
Q Do you know why Mr. O'Brien was reporting on these meetings with The Lippo Group people to you?
A I think it is really a report on our son, Mark, and he has seen him. And as an acquaintance that I know and have known for some years, he's writing me a letter saying that our son appears to be doing quite fine, which I was pleased to hear.
Q And Harry Ward?
A Harry is president of the University of Arkansas Medical School. He's president of the University of Arkansas Medical School, or Medical System. I'm not sure the exact responsibility.
Q Did you ever have any knowledge of Mr. Hubbell asking the Riadys to pay for tuition of any of his children?
A No, I don't.
Q Do you have any knowledge of the Riadys paying tuition or expenses for anybody's members?
A No.
Ms. Comstock. Make that Deposition Exhibit Number 23.
[McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM23
was marked for identification.]
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q I believe you previously discussed this meeting with the Governor of Jakarta, right?
A Uhhuh.
Q I just wanted to
Mr. Ballen. Excuse me, Counsel.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q I'm sorry April 23rd, 1993, letter to James Riady from you. Was this the time frame of the meeting that you previously had testified to?
A I believe that it is.
Q And do you recall how the meeting came about that Mr. Riady was included in that?
Mr. Ballen. I'm sorry, I didn't hear the last part of your question.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q If you could just tell us, generally, how the meeting came about, any involvement you may have had in bringing about the meeting.
A I believe there was simply a scheduling request to my office for the Governor of Jakarta and his sister city relationship with Little Rock or State relationship with Arkansas to see me during his visit to the United States, which I agreed to do.
Q Were you aware of John Huang ever making a request for that visit?
A I don't know who made the request to my office, Ms. Comstock.
Q Do you recall ever discussing with the President whether or not to go ahead with this meeting, any discussions you had with him?
A To the best of my memory, I don't believe I discussed this meeting with the President.
Q Do you recall if, I guess, Mr. Riady did meet with the President; is that correct, on this occasion?
A This letter is about a meeting with me, Ms. Comstock.
Q Right. On his visit to the White House where this meeting that you had with Mr. Riady was at the White House; is that correct?
A With the Governor of Jakarta and Mr. Riady accompanying him, as I recall. It was in the White House.
Q And you had a meeting. Who else was in that meeting that you had?
A I can't recall who else was in the meeting.
Mr. Ballen. Was this a substantive meeting to discuss Indonesian policy or foreign policy?
The Witness. No, it was not.
Mr. Ballen. It was more like a meeting to greet?
The Witness. It was a courtesy, ceremonial visit meeting to greet. That's how I think I earlier described it in my testimony.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q Do you know if on this visit they also had their picture taken with the press?
A I do not.
Ms. Comstock. Make that Deposition Exhibit Number 24.
[McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM24
was marked for identification.]
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q This is a November 15th, 1993, document which I think you previously testified to that you were at the Seattle APEC meeting in November of '93. And this document indicates a breakfast and it says "Matt McLarty" and I'm assuming that would be you with the misspelling of your name?
A I believe that it is.
Q Do you recall a breakfast that you did at the Seattle APEC conference, or do you recall if you were involved in such an event?
A I recall a breakfast. I don't know whether this is the memoranda referring to that breakfast or not. I do recall a breakfast meeting there.
Q And then directing your attention to where it says, I'll refer to it as Mack McLarty breakfast instead of Matt.
A Thank you.
Q But it indicates that John Huang was present there. Do you recall John Huang being there?
A The breakfast that I recall in Seattle was a much larger breakfast than this. I recall seeing Mr. Huang in Seattle. I don't recall seeing him at this particular breakfast, although I may have.
Q How long have you known John Huang?
A I believe I met John Huang in 1992.
Q Do you recall how you met him?
A I believe I met him on the eve of the economic conference in Little Rock after Governor Clinton was elected.
Q Do you know what he was doing there?
A I believe Mr. Riady was invited as a participant in that meeting and Mr. Huang accompanied him. That was my impression.
Q What was your understanding of what Mr. Huang did?
A My impression was he was associated with Mr. Riady. I don't believe I knew anything more about his activities than that.
Q Did you have any knowledge of Mr. Huang being a fundraiser in 1992?
A No, I did not.
Q Did you have any knowledge of him being the substantial donor in 1992?
A No, I do not and did not.
Q Do you have any knowledge about any conduit payments that Mr. Huang made in 1992?
A No, I do not.
Q Do you have any knowledge at any time of any conduit political contributions that Mr. Huang was involved in at any time from '92 to the present?
A No.
Q This document also indicates that Nora and Gene Lum were at a breakfast. Again, does that refresh your recollection as to whether or not you had ever met Nora or Gene Lum?
A No, it does not.
Q So you don't ever recall meeting them?
A No, I do not.
Q And then do you recall Mr. Riady being at this conference in the APEC Seattle conference?
A I recall seeing Mr. Riady at Seattle. I don't recall seeing him at the breakfast, although I may have.
Q And do you know Maeley Tom?
A No, I do not.
Q Or Maria Haley?
A I do know Maria Haley.
Q Do you recall her being at the conference?
A Yes, I have a recollection of her being at the APEC conference in Seattle.
Q Do you know how people were invited to the conference, what the process was?
A No, I do not.
Q Were you involved in that process at all or offer any suggestions of names at any time in the course of planning for the conference?
A I perhaps could have offered some names for consideration. I was not directly involved in the planning of the private sector part of the APEC conference. I was, in an overall sense, involved in the APEC planning with the meeting of the other Governors.
Q Do you have any knowledge of who would have been involved in inviting these individuals listed here?
A Normally the public liaison section in the White House would have a role in that, and generally the Commerce Department would.
Q Okay. I'll mark DNC 17299
A There may have been other suggestions from other agencies, as well.
Ms. Comstock. Okay. Thank you. DNC 1729928 through 29 Deposition Exhibit Number 25.
[McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM25
was marked for identification.]
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q I'm sorry, the previous document also mentioned March Fong Eu being president of the event. Do you know March Fong Eu?
A No, I do not.
Q Do you have any knowledge of March Fong Eu being a fundraiser for DNC or Clinton/Gore at any time?
A No.
Q This is an undated memo, EOP 030679, to Mark McLarty and John Podesta from Bruce Lindsey. The handwriting on the top of that again, that would be Patty McHugh's; is that correct?
A Yes, I believe that's right.
Q And would that indicate the "to" and "from" up there, would that indicate you would have forwarded this memo to Leon Panetta?
A It does.
Q And could you just generally, in reviewing this document, if you recall the context of this memo from Mr. Lindsey?
A As I remember, there was a group of Arkansans who had been invited and/or had expressed an interest in attending the APEC conference in Indonesia, and I believe this memo relates to that.
Q And that would be the conference in November of '94?
A That's correct.
Q The beginning of it says that John Tisdale and Doug Buford were people Mr. Lindsey had spoke with. Do you know what John Tisdale's and Doug Buford's involvement in this was?
A No, I do not.
Q Could you tell us who John Tisdale is?
A John is a lawyer in Little Rock.
Q Has he been the President's lawyer on some occasions on any matters?
A He may have done some work for the President. I don't think he is the President's lawyer.
Q You would have no knowledge of him doing any legal work for the Lums?
A No.
Q And Doug Buford, could you tell us who he is?
A He's also a lawyer in Little Rock.
Q Do you know some of the individuals who are listed here as the Arkansas delegation?
A I do.
Q And who are Alan and Jean Sugg?
A Dr. Sugg is president of the University of Arkansas system, and Jean is his wife.
Q And Wayne and Francis Cranford?
A Mr. Cranford is the chairman of Cranford, Johnson Robertson Advertising Agency in Little Rock.
Q And Mark and Libby Grobmyer?
A Mr. Grobmyer is an attorney in Little Rock.
Q Are you aware of some matters relating to a plutonium project that Mr. Grobmyer was meeting with people at the White House on at any time?
A It is possible that came to my attention. I don't recall it sitting here today.
Q Do you ever recall any complaints from the NSC about Mr. Grobmyer trying to push something identified generally as the plutonium project?
A No, I do not.
Q I'll return to that later. I need to go through this list.
Alice Walton of the Walton family?
A Yes.
Q And a representative of Systematics, do you know who that would have been?
A I don't know who the representative was contemplated to be.
Q And representative of Entergy?
A I don't know who the representative was contemplated to be.
Q Paul Berry?
A Paul Berry was an officer with Union National Bank in Little Rock.
Q Did he also do some fundraising for Clinton/Gore or DNC?
A I don't know.
Q The memo goes on to say, "All, except Paul Berry, appear to have some legitimate reason for being there."
Do you know what Mr. Lindsey meant by that? Did you have any discussions with Mr. Lindsey about that?
A I was asked to attend a couple meetings regarding the Arkansans possibly going to APEC where Mr. Lindsey, I believe, was president at least at one of the meetings. I don't know what he meant by that statement.
Q How many meetings were there, the Arkansas delegation to APEC?
A I believe I was asked to attend two.
Q And could you tell us who was at those meetings?
A I've already noted Mr. Lindsey. Ms. Hernreich, I believe, was present. Ms. Scott, I believe, was present. I believe Mr. Podesta may have attended one of the meetings. There may have been others. That's the best of my memory, sitting here today.
Q What was discussed at these meetings?
A Whether or not it was a good idea for this Arkansas delegation to attend the APEC conference in Indonesia.
Q And what were the concerns expressed?
A As I remember it, whether there would be any appearance concerns, appearance matters raised. I don't believe other States were going to have any representations there.
RPTS BRYAN
DCMN HERZFELD
[1:30 p.m.]
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q And how was this resolved?
A I don't know. I don't recall how it was ultimately resolved.
Q Do you recall different people having different positions on that?
A Yes, I do.
Q And could you tell us what those were?
A As I recall, while I had some reservation about influencing people in the private sector, on balance it was not a good idea for a group of Arkansans to go. I believe Mr. Lindsey was of the same opinion, as was Mr. Podesta. I believe Ms. Scott was for their going, and I don't recall Ms. Hernreich taking a position.
Q Do you recall any discussion about Mr. Hubbell being involved with this group also?
A I believe he was on the list. I don't recall any discussion about him.
Q Was there any particular concern relating to Mr. Hubbell being with the delegation at this time?
A I didn't raise any concern, and I don't Mr. Podesta, upon reflection, may have raised a concern about Mr. Hubbell going.
Q And do you recall what he said?
A I think it was more the appearance matter, which was in an overall sense as well.
Q And what were his concerns?
A I simply think that what I remember was that this might raise an appearance issue that would be reported on by the press. That was basically one of the prime considerations.
Q Now, in November of 1994, this was prior to Mr. Hubbell's guilty plea on December 6 of 1994, so I'm wondering what was the particular appearance problem that Mr. Podesta raised?
A I don't recall any other discussion other than what I've just related to you, Ms. Comstock.
Q Was there any type of concern that it would appear that the White House was trying to assist Mr. Hubbell in business activities?
A I don't recall that being discussed at all.
Q In the middle of the second paragraph here where it indicates Doug, who negotiated the revised list with James Riady, asked about his status.
A Uhhuh.
Q Do you recall James Riady being somebody who was putting together this list?
A As I remember it, I believe these people had been invited perhaps by Mr. Riady, or at least some of them had been; that's my recollection.
Q And was he going to be paying their way to go?
A Ms. Comstock, I don't know. I was not going, and I really did not give a lot of focused attention to this matter, other than to express my views when asked.
Q Was there some concern in the discussion that Mr. Riady was paying for all of these people to go?
A I don't recall that Mr. Riady was going to pay the expenses. Perhaps that was mentioned. I just simply don't remember, sitting here today.
Q Okay. And then it goes on in that same paragraph, it says, "He," meaning Doug Buford, "would clearly like to go, but will do whatever we want."
Do you recall them telling you about talking to Doug Buford about this?
A No, I do not.
Q Do you recall discussing this memo in particular with Mr. Lindsey?
A I don't believe I ever had a discussion with just Mr. Lindsey by himself. I might have, but I don't believe that I did.
Q Or actually just on these issues in general, not just the memo, the issues of the Arkansas delegation going to Jakarta?
A Mr. Lindsey, I believe, was in at least one of the meetings where this matter was discussed.
Q And do you know what Mr. Lindsey meant when he wrote, "He," meaning Doug Buford again, "believes his presence will help to," quote, "'control' the group"?
A No, I don't know.
Q Was there any concerns expressed in the discussions that the group was going to be out of control?
A I don't recall any discussions of that type.
Q Okay. So looking back on this, you don't know what kind of control issues Mr. Lindsey was concerned about or about what this group might do that was going to be a problem?
A It's in quotation marks. I don't know what Mr. Lindsey meant by that.
Q Are you aware of the President meeting with James Riady on this trip in November of 1994?
A I may have been aware that Mr. Riady had requested the President meet with him on this trip.
Q Okay. And directing your attention, the last paragraph does indicate that James Riady and his father would like to have the opportunity to visit briefly with President Clinton in the hotel during the visit. I'm wondering if you knew if that did, in fact, occur?
A I don't know whether it did or not.
Q And Mr. Lindsey concludes the memo by writing, quote, "James has been reasonable in culling the list, and I think we should try to schedule a 15minute meeting for them."
Do you recall discussing that with Mr. Lindsey?
A No, I do not. Again, Ms. Comstock, no, I do not remember that.
Q In reading through the memo, I mean, it appears, particularly with this conclusion, "I think we should try to schedule a meeting," and then, "James has been reasonable in culling the list," Mr. Lindsey seemed to be proposing that this meetings do go forward.
Do you recall Mr. Lindsey proposing that these meetings do take that they should take place?
Mr. Taylor. The meeting between the President and the Riadys?
Ms. Comstock. Well, it also says, "James has been reasonable in culling the list." It seems to suggest that this list may have Mr. Lindsey may have thought it was reasonable.
Mr. Taylor. With all due respect, that's argument and not question.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q No, but I'm just asking you in reviewing that if that helps you refresh your recollection on Mr. Lindsey's position on whether or not any of these meetings should go forward, whether the delegation should go, whether the President should meet with the Riadys.
Mr. Ballen. Well, there are two separate questions.
Mr. Taylor. Three, by my count.
Mr. Ballen. I think he has testified as to most of them.
The Witness. Ms. Comstock, I stand by my testimony. My best memory is that Mr. Lindsey suggested that the Arkansas group should not go. I don't recall any discussion with Mr. Lindsey about whether or not the President should meet with Mr. Riady and his father. I just simply don't recall that. That's two of the three. I don't remember what the third was.
Ms. Comstock. I think that will do.
I'll make that Deposition Exhibit Number 26.
[McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM26
was marked for identification.]
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q Do you recall if you discussed this trip at all with Leon Panetta?
A I don't remember raising it with Mr. Panetta. I may have, but I don't remember raising it with him.
Q Do you recall generally what his position was or learning of his position on this trip?
A No, I do not.
Q And it says "Marsha" on the bottom. Just to make clear, that's your handwriting on the bottom of the document?
A It is.
Q And does that read "Leon" first?
A It does.
Q And then what are the other names there?
A John Angel, who worked on Mr. Panetta's staff; "Marsha," I believe refers to Marsha Scott; and "SR" is Skip Rutherford.
Q Okay. And do you know if you discussed this with Skip Rutherford?
A I don't recall discussing it with Skip, but I may have.
Q Do you recall his position on the delegation whether they should go or not?
A No, I do not.
Q Do you recall if anybody had approached him to sort of lobby him on them being allowed to be involved, the Arkansas delegation?
A I don't know.
Q This is an August 2nd, 1996 letter to Mr. Riady from you.
Previously you had said that you thought you saw Mr. Riady at an APEC business meeting. Was this the time frame or the context of that APEC business meeting? Directing your attention to the second paragraph, it's mentioned.
A It appears to be, but I just don't remember the specific date or the time frame of the APEC business meeting.
Q Your letter says, to Mr. Riady, it says, "You have keen insights in the business matters, both in your region and from a global standpoint, and thus your comments were particularly meaningful to me."
Do you recall what he discussed with you?
A Yes, I do.
Q Okay. Could you tell us about that?
A As I remember, I had a brief exchange with Mr. Riady and John Huang after the President spoke at Mr. Bryant's reception here in Washington. The and I believe Mr. Riady, as I remember it, complimented me on my presentation, and I am thanking him for his kind words.
Q But in particular, had he made comments about Asian business matters that caused you to make the observation in the second sentence?
A Well, my remarks were to the Asia/Pacific business group, and as I remember it, Ms. Comstock, his compliments or kind words were about that I had presented my views in the correct way, or in an understandable way. I don't recall what language he used.
Q Do you have an understanding of Mr. Riady being involved in any fundraising in 1996?
A I was aware he was supportive of the President and may have been aware he was supportive I don't recall knowing that or certainly not knowing the extent of his participation, but I knew he was generally supportive of the President, and that could well include financial support.
Q You don't have any knowledge beyond that general impression?
A I think that was my knowledge.
Q Do you have an understanding of where Mr. Riady was living, whether he was living in Indonesia or the United States at this time in 1996?
A No, I did not know.
Ms. Comstock. I'll make this Deposition Exhibit Number 27.
[McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM27
was marked for identification.]
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q This is a September 6, 1996 memo to Mack McLarty from Mark Middleton, marked CCH000157. It's regarding a Monday meeting and the date is September 6th, 1996.
Do you recall receiving this memo from Mr. Middleton?
A Yes, I do.
Q Could you tell us what this is about?
A As I remember, Mr. Middleton called me and related that Mr. Riady and the President had had a visit at some earlier meeting that I was not in attendance, and they did not complete their conversation, according to Mr. Middleton, and that the President had asked Mr. Riady to arrange an appointment with him to finish their conversation. And Mr. Middleton is asking me to follow up on the President's request, making me aware of the President's request.
Q Do you know how Mark Middleton knew of the President's request?
A No, I do not.
Q So it was Mark Middleton that informed you of the President's request, not the President?
A That's correct.
Q Did the President ever mention anything to you about this previous meeting?
A I don't believe that he did.
Q And what was your understanding of what the conversation had been between Mr. Riady and the President?
A Mr. Middleton said he did not know.
Q And would the time frame have been fairly recent prior to this September 6, '96 date?
A I believe that is correct.
Q Did he say where the conversation had occurred?
A I don't know that he named a place in our conversation. He may have, but I don't remember that.
Q He mentioned Mr. Riady attended a dinner on July 30th, 1996 at a hotel close to the White House. Do you recall if it was in a dinner context, a small dinner or anything like that?
A Ms. Comstock, I've already answered that question. I don't recall whether he mentioned where Mr. Riady and the President had visited. I just simply don't remember whether he mentioned that or not.
Q So you don't know if it was at the White House or outside or anything that specific?
A I do not know.
Q So did Mr. Middleton call you somewhere contemporaneously with this September 6, 1996 memo?
A I'm sorry. Repeat the question.
Q Did Mr. Middleton call you sometime fairly close to the time of this memo?
A I'm not certain when he called me, Ms. Comstock. I just simply don't know.
Q And then did you, in fact, then get together with Mr. Riady?
A No, I did not.
Q And why didn't that occur?
A The request, as I thought I conveyed to you, was for Mr. Riady and the President to meet and complete their conversation.
Q Okay. I'm sorry. Did that meeting with the President occur?
A It did.
Q Okay. And did you set that up? I'm sorry to garble this record.
The request had been that you the request as relayed by Mr. Middleton was asking you to set up a meeting with Mr. Riady so Mr. Riady and the President could complete the conversation of unknown topic; is that correct?
A I believe that's correct. What I remember, and I think I have testified to, is Mr. Middleton called me, as I've already told you, and asked me to assist in arranging an appointment for Mr. Riady that the President had requested after, as I understood it, Mr. Riady and the President had seen each other at some earlier occasion. I believe I told Mr. Middleton that I would make Nancy Hernreich, the President's personal secretary, aware of this request, and I believe I advised Mr. Middleton to call Ms. Hernreich directly.
Q So do you know then what happened with did you call Ms. Hernreich, or you told Mr. Middleton to call her?
A I told Mr. Middleton, Ms. Comstock, as I have just testified, that I would make Ms. Hernreich available make Ms. Hernreich aware of Mr. Middleton's phone call to me and this request, and that Mr. Middleton should call Ms. Hernreich directly.
Q Okay. And then did you make Ms. Hernreich aware?
A I did.
Q And what did you tell her?
A I told her that Mr. Middleton may be calling her about an appointment for James Riady; that, as I understood it, the President had requested to see Mr. Riady to complete a conversation they had had at some earlier point in time.
Q Did Ms. Hernreich comment on that to you at all?
A I don't recall that she did.
Q And then could you just walk us through whatever else you know about this meeting?
A The meeting did take place, but I did not learn of it until sometime after it took place.
Q Okay. And when was that that you learned that it took place?
A I don't recall when I learned that it had taken place. It was sometime after the meeting.
Q And how did you learn of that?
A I don't recall with certainty how I learned of it.
Q Can you tell us anything else about the meeting that you know about it?
A I was not at the meeting, and I've told you all I know about it.
Q Do you know anybody else who was at the meeting?
A I'm not sure who was at the meeting, Ms. Comstock, so I don't think I should speculate on who was there.
Q Do you know if the meeting occurred at the White House?
A I believe it was my understanding that it did.
Q Do you know how you received this memo from Mr. Middleton?
A No, I do not.
Q Did he have a practice of faxing things over to you?
A I think on occasion he did fax things.
Q And would you keep his requests, or how did you
A I would handle them in the normal course of business, my secretary.
Q And do you know how those would be kept after you received them?
A No, I do not.
Q The meeting doesn't say who we are talking about here. It refers to the meeting participant. Do you know why there was any secrecy about who the meeting participant was in this case?
Mr. Ballen. I'm going to object. You're assuming that there was any secrecy, and the witness hasn't testified that there was.
Mr. Taylor. And I'll sustain his objection.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q I'm wondering why you have indicated that the meeting participant was Mr. Riady; is that correct?
A That's as I recall Mr. Middleton telling me in our telephone conversation.
Q I was wondering if you know, you know, if when Mr. Middleton wrote memos to you about Mr. Riady, would he try and not put his name in the memo, or was there any concern about having Mr. Riady's name in a memo to you?
A I'm not aware of any concern, and I don't know why Mr. Middleton worded a memorandum like this.
Q When you got the memo, would you have known who he was talking about when he said, the meeting participant staying at the Four Seasons? Were you able to look at it and say, I know who that is?
A I believe Mr. Middleton had already talked to me by telephone by the time I received this, so I think I would have known who he was referring to.
Q Do you have any knowledge about any meeting that the President had with Mr. Riady in a limousine where he picked him up and was in a limousine talking with Mr. Riady in this time frame?
A It could have been. I just don't remember the place and location where the President and Mr. Riady met, and I was not there, so I just don't remember that level of detail.
Q And then to this date you have no knowledge about what the meeting the President had with Mr. Riady was about?
A No, I do not.
Q Mr. Middleton never learned of it and told you or anything like that?
A I believe Mr. Middleton may have told me the meeting took place, but he did not talk about the subject matter, nor did I ask.
Ms. Comstock. We will make that Deposition Exhibit Number 28.
[McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM28
was marked for identification.]
Mr. Ballen. I am going to note for the record at this point I believe we have agreed on an approximately 2 o'clock termination for this deposition, and it's been running about 51/2 hours approximately with some breaks for Majority questioning, and Minority has approximately 5 minutes of questions that we would like to ask. So this may be an appropriate time to do so.
Ms. Comstock. We during the break had precluded a lot of the all of the information about Mr. Tamraz, and I am fairly close to finishing up here, maybe about 15 minutes. Could we have a little leeway on that and just try and finish up that? If we get out of here I know I can guarantee 2:30, but if we can go about 15, 20 minutes?
Mr. Kanjorski. That's 35 minutes.
Mr. Ballen. The Minority does have some questions.
Ms. Comstock. Could I go about 15 minutes then and
Mr. Kanjorski. Could I suggest we get the Minority's 5 minutes in?
Ms. Comstock. Okay. Why don't we do that.
Mr. Kanjorski. If we could allow the time for the Minority.
Ms. Comstock. Okay. Why don't we do that 5 minutes, and then if you could give me a few more, I would appreciate it.
EXAMINATION BY MR. BALLEN:
Q Mr. McLarty, I would like to take this opportunity, and I know I'm joined by Representative Kanjorski, in thanking you for being here, for generously taking your time this morning and this afternoon. We have been going for close to 51/2 hours now. You have a distinguished record in the private sector and an even more distinguished record in public service over the last 4 years, and your time here has been generous. Your answers have been forthcoming.
What's often not reflected in the cold record is the effort one makes to recall details of conversations. You had very important positions in the administration, and I want the record and I think everyone here in this deposition would note your dedication and effort in answering every question as fully and fairly as you possibly can.
I have a few questions to follow up and then some other questions.
Did the President or the First Lady, sir, ever ask you to provide any assistance to Webster Hubbell?
A No, they did not.
Q Let me return, if I may, to Exhibit 3, sir. If you could take my copy of it. Do you have it before you?
A I do.
Q I believe this was your testimony, and please correct me if I am mistaken, but isn't it the case, sir, that you don't recall whether the various notations on this page came from one person, more than one person, or simply reflect your own thinking?
A That is my testimony.
Q In 1994
Ms. Comstock. That you don't know which of those it is?
The Witness. That's right. I think I've suggested it could be any, all or none of the three.
BY MR. BALLEN:
Q In 1994, you had no personal knowledge, did you, that Mickey Kantor, in fact, attempted to get employment for Mr. Hubbell?
A That is correct. To the best of my memory and knowledge, I did not know that.
Q You never asked Mr. Kantor to find Mr. Hubbell employment, did you?
A No, I did not.
Q And I believe you testified that you never asked Mr. Rapport to help Mr. Hubbell; is that correct?
A That is correct.
Q And you have no specific recollection of Mr. Rapport ever telling you he was helping or planned to help Mr. Hubbell; is that correct?
A That is correct.
Q Sir, when you spoke to Truman Arnold about Mr. Hubbell, you were discussing employment possibilities for Mr. Hubbell, not possibilities of anyone making a charitable contribution; would that be a fair statement?
A That is a fair statement.
Q You were not suggesting to Mr. Arnold, were you, that he or anyone else give money to Mr. Hubbell with no expectation of providing any services in return for that money?
A That is absolutely correct.
Q In fact, I believe you testified that Mr. Arnold asked you for a resume or a bio from Mr. Hubbell so that he could determine whether Mr. Hubbell might was qualified to provide any services to him or his companies?
A That is correct. I testified about that earlier.
Q Turning to the March 13th meeting at the White House that you testified to, was there any connection whatsoever between Mr. Hubbell's possible resignation and the Whitewater investigation, sir?
A None whatsoever.
Q And your help for Mr. Hubbell had nothing to do with Whitewater or anything that Mr. Hubbell might know about Whitewater; is that correct?
A Absolutely, that is correct.
Q Now, with respect to your March 1994 conversation with Marsha Scott which you testified to earlier, Marsha Scott never specifically suggested that you help Mr. Hubbell find job opportunities, did she?
A I don't recall Ms. Scott and I ever talking about employment opportunities for Mr. Hubbell.
Mr. Ballen. Excuse me for one moment.
BY MR. BALLEN:
Q I have a few questions that Mr. Condit, a Member of our committee, wanted to make sure we asked.
Have you been asked by any other official investigative body to testify or provide evidence on any of the matters being investigated by this committee?
A Yes, I have.
Q And who would that be, sir? Which bodies?
A The
Q It might be a long list.
A The Senate, the Justice Department, and the Special Counsel's Office, Special Prosecutor's Office.
Q And have you provided documents or searched for documents in regard to those areas?
A Yes, I have.
Q Would it be fair to say that the request for information overlapped with the request from this committee?
A That would be fair to say.
Q And that documents, information and testimony provided to this committee have been previously provided other investigative bodies?
A They have been.
Q Do you have any requests in the future to provide evidence or testimony in regards to these matters?
A I believe we have outstanding requests.
Q Can you estimate, and I realize this is a difficult question, but can you estimate how much of your time has been diverted from your official duties in responding to requests for interviews, testimony, documents and information through various congressional and other investigative organizations?
A I would like to say too much. A great deal.
Q When you say a great deal, is this a matter of hours, days, weeks? Is there any way to estimate? I know it's hard to come up with a round number.
A Many, many hours.
Q Have you taken much time from your official duties to respond, sir?
A I have.
Q Have you incurred any expenses in this regard?
A Substantial.
Q Can you estimate the nature of the expenses?
A May I confer with my attorney?
Mr. Taylor. I'm sorry. What's the question?
Mr. Ballen. I'll repeat the question.
BY MR. BALLEN:
Q Can you estimate the nature of the expenses that you have incurred in regard to the various investigations?
Mr. Taylor. I appreciate the concern. I'm sure he does. I do not think that's a matter which he would like to put on public record. His legal fees have been an enormous burden, and I'm not talking about just tens of thousands of dollars.
Mr. Ballen. I think that's fair.
BY MR. BALLEN:
Q Has this committee offered to reimburse you for your time and expenses incurred?
A Not to my knowledge.
Q Would you seek reimbursement from the committee on expenses?
A I would ask my attorneys to evaluate any appropriate seeking of reimbursement.
Mr. Ballen. Thank you, sir. Again, thank you very much for your time.
Mr. Kanjorski. I would just ask, this is not as closely relevant. The point was made earlier by the examination of the Majority counsel the fact that Mr. Hubbell received somewhere around $500,000 in that hiatus period from leaving the Justice Department. Are you aware of the fact that he was named one of the best scholars in America for 4 years prior to being named second in command of the Justice Department, and that he had honorably served as Chief Justice of the highest court of Arkansas?
The Witness. I was aware that Mr. Hubbell had served on the Supreme Court and had a very fine reputation as a lawyer in Arkansas.
Mr. Kanjorski. And you probably, from your exposure in Washington, D.C. in the last 41/2 years, would not find it unusual for a senior partner of a major law firm with this type of a background to receive his fees or remuneration far in excess of a half million dollars a year; that would not be unusual?
The Witness. That was my experience in the private sector, as well as here.
Mr. Kanjorski. All right. Thank you.
Mr. Ballen. May I just have one more moment?
[Pause in proceedings.]
Mr. Ballen. Thank you very much, sir. I think I kept it within a short period of time of 5 to 10 minutes.
Ms. Comstock. I just have a few more questions.
Mr. Taylor. Let me simply say that at 2:25 we are leaving.
Mr. Kanjorski. Can I interject and say 2:15? We all have some of our schedules are really why don't you really close it up. We are going to have another period of examination.
Ms. Comstock. I think we will be finished quickly.
Mr. Taylor. She will be finished with a capital F at 2:25.
Ms. Comstock. But I will try to meet yours, Congressman.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q I just wanted to show you some phone records which I believe you provided to the committee which reflect some phone calls to a Los Angeles number of 6251888, which I believe is the LippoBank.
Can you tell us what those calls are regarding?
A Yes.
Q I'm sorry, the bill is for January of 1994, so the calls are December of 1993, on 1223, 1227. I'll let you tell us what they are.
A I believe I can tell you what they are.
Q Okay. Could you do that?
A I believe they have to do with our son, who is a junior at Georgetown, going to the Chinese university in Hong Kong, and after discussing that with my wife, I called John Huang, who was the only person I knew from Hong Kong, or seemed to be a logical person to call, and told him Mark was going to be spending a semester there and really asked for any advice or counsel he might have about safety matters, security matters, hospitals, things of that nature.
Q And what did he tell you?
A He was quite courteous and helpful, and said he thought our son would have a fine experience there. He was quite positive about his attending school in Hong Kong.
Q And prior to this time, had you had many contacts with John Huang?
A I had met Mr. Huang on two or three occasions prior to this.
Q And if you could just briefly tell us what those occasions were. Were they events at the White House?
Mr. Ballen. Well, he has already told you about the summit.
Ms. Comstock. Yes.
The Witness. I recall meeting him in Little Rock at the economic conference, which I've already testified to, and I believe Mr. Huang accompanied the Governor of Jakarta, I think he was at that meeting as well, and I may have seen him on one or two other occasions during my time in Washington in 1993.
Q And were you aware of him seeking a job in the administration at this time in December of 1993?
A I don't remember that I was. It's possible, Ms. Comstock, that I was, but I don't sitting here today I don't recall that I was.
Q Were you ever involved in any discussions about the hiring of Mr. Huang?
A No, I do not believe that I was.
Q Do you know anything about how Mr. Huang came to be hired at the Commerce Department?
A No, I don't believe I knew anything about that matter.
Q And again, when Mr. Huang left his Commerce Department job and went to the DNC, do you have any knowledge about those discussions about Mr. Huang leaving and going to the DNC?
A No, I do not.
Q So this September 13th, 1995 meeting that's been reported on that the President was at and Mr. Giroir, Mr. Riady, Mr. Huang and Mr. Lindsey, you have no knowledge about the discussions in those meetings?
A No, I do not.
Ms. Comstock. I would like to make these phone records I will not make these phone records part of the record, since it has your phone number in it. I will just say for the record these are phone records of Mr. McLarty that have been provided in a personal production, and the LippoBank number on here, which I'll put that in the record, is (213)6251888, and Mr. McLarty has indicated that that was a number that he called to reach Mr. John Huang. We will not make that an exhibit.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q Okay. If you can give us a brief narrative, there have been reports on meetings had with Mark Jimenez. Could you just briefly discuss with us how you came to meet with Mr. Jimenez?
Mr. Ballen. If, in fact, you did.
The Witness. I did meet with Mr. Jimenez. I believe the first time I met him was in September of 1995. Mr. Middleton had requested a courtesy visit by Mr. Jimenez and had related to me that he had been a strong supporter with the Summit of the Americas, which the President had asked me to coordinate in 1994 in Miami, Florida, a meeting of the democraticallyelected heads of state from this hemisphere. I may have met Mr. Jimenez during the summit; I don't recall that I did.
Mr. Middleton also said Mr. Jimenez was a successful businessperson with active interest in Latin America, which was increasingly my responsibility, and I had a regular practice of meeting with businesspeople both from the United States and from Latin America, Canada and the Caribbean as part of my responsibility in following up at the summit. So I had a courtesy visit, I believe, with him in September of 1995.
Q Did you have any contact with the NSC at that time in meeting Mr. Jimenez?
A No, I did not.
Q And did there come a time when you met with Mr. Jimenez again?
A There did.
Q And would that be in February of 1996?
A Ms. Comstock, I don't believe I met Mr. Jimenez in February of 1996. I believe the meeting was somewhat later.
Q And what do you recall about that second meeting?
A I recall that I had a request to meet with Mr. Jimenez and Dr. Mersan, who was known as the top economic advisor to President Wasmosy in Paraguay, not a formal member of the government, but a consultant to President Wasmosy, who was very much in favor of open markets, which was consistent with our policy and consistent with some of the Summit of the Americas agenda. I believe my schedule, however, precluded my meeting with Mr. Jimenez and Dr. Mersan in February, and I did not meet with them.
Q So the February meetings that are reflected did not occur then?
A I believe that's the case. I do not believe I ever met Dr. Mersan.
Q Did there come a time then when you did meet with Mr. Jimenez?
A Yes.
Q And what occurred at that meeting?
A I believe there was a followup request, since we did not have that scheduled meeting. I believe at that point I was aware that Mr. Jimenez had an active business interest throughout Latin America and had a particular interest in Paraguay, which had its first democracy literally in the history of the country, and we, of course again, that was part of the Summit of the Americas agenda to confirm and support democracies.
Part of my responsibility in following up on the summit, I did agree to meet with Mr. Jimenez. I think it was suggested with some emphasis on Paraguay, which I thought was important, given it was a small country and many times did not get much attention from our government, and I thought it was important that we do so.
We did meet. I don't recall the exact date of the meeting. As I remember it, Ms. Comstock, Mr. Jimenez did raise points about the fragility of the Paraguayan democracy, the newness of it. I believe he raised the certification issue; I believe we had decertified Paraguay of the certification process on March 1, and I believe his view was that was a negative from President Wasmosy's standpoint in trying to develop democratic institutions in Paraguay, and I believe then he mentioned or noted his concern about a possible instability in Paraguay.
At that point the conversation, in my mind, was different than I had anticipated with very serious issues, potential issues being raised, and I told Mr. Jimenez I appreciated his input, but I felt the proper people should be involved in any discussions of this type, and while I had involvement in the hemisphere, we were now getting into issues that were not my direct responsibility, and we appreciated his input, and we would try to arrange such meetings as necessary.
Q Were you aware that Mr. Jimenez was a donor to the DNC?
A Yes, I believe I was aware he was a supporter by this time.
Q And had you been aware that he had been the previous meeting when he tried to meet with you, he was there for a coffee event?
A I don't think I knew he was there for a coffee event. I think I was aware he had requested a meeting, or Dr. Mersan had requested a meeting, with me, and Mr. Jimenez was going to be with him.
Q Did you have any understanding that these were clients of Mark Middleton, or Mr. Middleton had an affiliation with them?
A I knew Mr. Jimenez and Mr. Middleton knew each other and knew each other in a favorable way. I, frankly, did not know whether Mr. Jimenez and his company were clients of Mr. Middleton's or not.
Q Do you know if Mr. Middleton attended this meeting that you had ultimately with Mr. Jimenez?
A I don't believe Mr. Middleton was present at that meeting, Ms. Comstock. He may have been, but I do not believe that he was.
Q This is two pages. This is regarding Mr. Grobmyer. We had just previously discussed a little bit about Mr. Grobmyer's
Mr. Ballen. Excuse me. Could we have a copy of this for Mr. Kanjorski as well?
Ms. Comstock. Actually, you have my full copy. I don't even have a full copy myself, but you guys keep that one.
Mr. Ballen. We'll get it when we get back.
Since we don't have any since we do not get the exhibits in advance of the deposition, the Minority would like an opportunity to review them.
Ms. Comstock. But these are all documents that you all have.
Mr. Ballen. Well, they may be documents we have, I don't know
Mr. Taylor. I thought we had distinguished them from another half a million papers.
Mr. Ballen. That's right. That's the point I was going to make.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q I was just wondering, we had just briefly discussed before Mr. Grobmyer's plutonium project he was working on. I was just wondering if this refreshes your recollection at all about any activities that Mr. Grobmyer was involved in in trying to meet with the NSC on?
A No, I don't recall any requests by Mr. Grobmyer to meet with the NSC on this matter. I don't recall any requests on his part.
Q Were you aware of anything having to do with a plutonium project that Mr. Grobmyer was working on in Arkansas trying to make casks or things that were going to be utilized in this project in Arkansas?
A I don't remember it, Ms. Comstock, sitting here today. From time to time Mr. Grobmyer did send me information, and I normally would just try to facilitate it to the proper department for handling.
Mr. Ballen. I would note for the record this has been asked and answered, and there is nothing in these emails that is to this witness, no indication that he received these.
Ms. Comstock. No, I think that's clear from the record. Well, it's clear from the email, and we will make that an exhibit. We will make this Exhibit Number 29.
[McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM29
was marked for identification.]
Ms. Comstock. Thank you very much, Mr. McLarty. I appreciate your time today.
Mr. Taylor. No further questions?
Mr. Ballen. No further questions.
[Whereupon, at 2:20 p.m., the deposition concluded.]
CONTENTS
EXHIBITS: PAGE
McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM1
was marked for identification.............................. 51
McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM2
was marked for identification.............................. 60
McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM3
was marked for identification.............................. 74
McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM4
was marked for identification.............................. 77
McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM5
was marked for identification.............................. 81
McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM6
was marked for identification.............................. 85
McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM7
was marked for identification............................. 102
McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM8
was marked for identification............................. 107
McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. 9
was marked for identification............................. 110
McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM10
was marked for identification............................. 112
McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM11
was marked for identification............................. 125
McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM12
was marked for identification............................. 127
McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM13
was marked for identification............................. 129
McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM14
was marked for identification............................. 132
McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM15
was marked for identification............................. 140
McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM16
was marked for identification............................. 140
McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM17
was marked for identification............................. 147
McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM18
was marked for identification............................. 149
McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM19
was marked for identification............................. 151
McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM20
was marked for identification............................. 153
McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM21
was marked for identification............................. 159
McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM22
was marked for identification............................. 162
McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM23
was marked for identification............................. 166
McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM24
was marked for identification............................. 168
McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM25
was marked for identification............................. 171
McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM26
was marked for identification............................. 182
McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM27
was marked for identification............................. 185
McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM28
was marked for identification............................. 192
McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM29
was marked for identification............................. 209
CONTENTS
OBJECTIONS: PAGE
Mr. Taylor. I request that that matter not be placed
on the transcript at this point and any other time. You
can have his home address, if you need it, but there
should not be a document which comes into the public
record with Mr. McLarty's home address on it. ............ 10
Mr. Ballen. Excuse me, I'm going to object to this
line of questioning. I mean you know I have been
patient with it because I've been trying to figure out
what it has to do with our investigation and how it
relates to campaign finance abuse, but I fail to see any
connection whatsoever with the mandate of this committee
and the resolution, and maybe if counsel can enlighten
me as to how it relates to our investigation, I can
withdraw my objection, but other than that I feel it is
objectionable. I lodge an objection as to the
pertinency and relevancy of this line of inquiry. ......... 18
Mr. Ballen. I'm going to renew the same
objection. ................................................ 22
Mr. Ballen. I just want it very plain for the record
that the Minority objects to this entire area of inquiry
as beyond the scope of what the members of this
committee voted on to require. ............................ 27
Mr. Ballen. Objection. Again, we're under a different
topic again way outside this committee's scope. I want
to again object on the pertinency and relevancy lines.
If counsel can show where these allegations regarding
Arkla are in the committee report, I'd be happy to
withdraw my objection. I don't see anything even
remotely related to this in the committee report. It
is important that the committee, that counsel for the
committee ask questions of the witness that are related
to the committee scope as voted on by the Members and
that is the scope that was approved by the House, full
House. I just don't see any nexus or statement that
this kind of matter is in the committee's jurisdiction. ... 28